Corrections to Ethics and the Modern Guru Magazine, Issue 2

[**NOTE: COPYRIGHT is retained by each individual writer/speaker. It has been claimed that this post violates the copyright of the magazine in which it was originally published. However, the editor-in-chief explicitly agreed that the contributors to the magazine would retain copyright to their work, in case they wanted to republish their work. She also promised to put a copyright notice, to this effect, in the magazine itself, but failed to do so. I never granted exclusive copyright to my work to the magazine—and to my knowledge, neither did any of the other writers/speakers in these interviews. Debra Van Neste's statements are included under fair use, for the purpose of criticism.]

[UPDATE: This post is simply to provide a clear public record of what was submitted vs. what was printed in the magazine. For a complete, detailed version of the interview with Teal's alleged abuser, I recommend you see this post.]

The following interviews were featured in the latest issue of Ethics And The Modern Guru. I contributed to the magazine, because I believed it to stand for a morally sound cause. While I was a contributor to the magazine for a time, I did not have editorial input or control of the final product that was released in October 2015. While the information I provided was sound, accurate, properly attributed, and properly transcribed when submitted, I was disappointed to see that my and others’ contributions were then shoddily edited and misstated for final print in the magazine. I don’t feel that it’s right to be charging money for information that should be available far and wide to anyone who feels inclined to read it. I also don’t think the final product is worth the price of admission, when the errors are so egregious and innumerable. Amazingly, the vast majority of the edits of these interviews seem to have introduced grammatical, stylistic, and content errors, rather than correcting them. This conclusion is not just a matter of opinion; it is based on the publishing-industry-recognized authority on grammar and editorial style: The Chicago Manual of Style (or Google for free resources on grammar and style). The errors and problems in these interviews include (but are not limited to) the following:

1. failed to indicate in the magazine’s copyright notice that contributors to the magazine retain copyright to their own work, as promised by the editor-in-chief
2. incorrectly switched the names of two of the interviewers in the Blake Dyer interview, in every single instance (i.e., put “John” in place of “Sara,” and “Sara” in place of “John”) (note: the submitted version said “interviewer #1” and “interviewer #2”; these placeholders have been replaced by the appropriate names, below, for clarity and ease of reading)
3. added an entire paragraph (i.e., the second paragraph) to the first interview, without my knowledge or permission
4. incorrectly changed and removed quotes, without using brackets or ellipses to indicate that changes were made (i.e., misquoted speakers and writers—including, but not limited to, “Doc” and Teal)
5. incorrectly changed the meaning of text in quotes (e.g., changed “boyfriends” to “boyfriend”)
6. incorrectly removed the Latin “[sic],” which indicates that an error was present in the original writing, not the quote thereof
7. incorrectly removed ellipses that indicate text that was omitted from quotes (thereby creating misleading quotes)
8. incorrectly replaced dashes that indicate long pauses in speech—or speakers being cut off—with ellipses, creating the false impression that text was removed from quotes, when it wasn’t
9. incorrectly removed commas that indicate short pauses in speech
10. incorrectly moved commas and periods from inside quotes (e.g., “Doc,”) to outside quotes (e.g., “Doc”,)
11. incorrectly removed hyphens that indicate hyphenated compound words (e.g., changed “hands-on” to “hands on”)
12. incorrectly uncapitalized words in the title of the first interview
13. incorrectly indented (rather than centering) the title
14. incorrectly changed the formatting of numbered lists to put hyphens around the numbers (e.g., replaced “1. 2. 3.” with “-1- -2- -3-”)
15. incorrectly added run-on sentences (e.g., "We called Teal's parents, when we told her mother we wanted to interview her or her husband about Teal, she hung up the phone.")
16. incorrectly failed to use indented block quotes for long quotes
17. incorrectly failed to put quotation marks at the beginning and/or end of some quotes
18. incorrectly replaced a word in a phrase used by Teal (i.e., “Mormon stake house”) with an unrelated homonym (“steak”) multiple times
19. incorrectly replaced double quotation marks with single quotation marks (i.e., replaced “seizures” with ‘seizures’)
20. incorrectly changed phrases/words (e.g., “awhile” to “a while”; “mind control” to “mind control”)

For this and other reasons, I feel a side-by-side comparison is useful, to let a clear public record stand. I’m thrilled that this information is being made available to people through multiple outlets, and I think the content is sound, overall. However, I don’t wish to see the credibility of the work being done to expose Teal Swan compromised by sloppy mistakes. I also don’t think it’s fair to misquote, misstate, or misprint information provided by any of the parties involved—including, but not limited to, “Doc” and Teal.

What follows is a side-by-side comparison of the interviews of Teal’s alleged abuser (“Doc”) and Teal’s ex-boyfriend and COO (Blake Dyer). On the left are the versions that were submitted to the editors. On the right are the versions that were printed in the magazine. Changed and omitted text is highlighted.

NOTE: Some of the emails that were exchanged with “Doc” and Blake were omitted from the magazine. I will be posting and/or paraphrasing the content of those exchanges in another blog post soon.

1	VERSION SUBMITTED TO EDITORS: An Interview of Teal Swan's Alleged Childhood Abuser	1	FINAL VERSION PUBLISHED ONLINE AND IN PRINT: An exclusive interview with Teal Swan's alleged abuser
2		2
3	by John Anderson and Cameron Clark	3	by John Anderson and Cameron Clark
4		4
5	Teal Swan has made some remarkable claims about being a victim of satanic, bizarre, sexual and physical, years-long, childhood abuse. In this article, we share the first known interview of Teal's alleged abuser, "Doc," concerning the alleged abuse. Included towards the end of this article is a handwritten letter Teal allegedly sent Doc in 2004. Here are some of Teal's claims, regarding the alleged abuse (followed by the interview itself):	5	Teal Swan has made some remarkable claims about being a victim of satanic, bizarre, sexual and physical, years-long, childhood abuse. In this article we share the first known interview with Teal's alleged abuser: "Doc", concerning the alleged abuse. Included towards the end of this article is a handwritten letter Teal sent Doc in 2004.
6		6
		7	A lot of Teal's strength as a spiritual teacher rests on her story, part of this story involves that she was ritually abused by a Satanic Mormon. Satanic abuse is one of the most common forms of False Memory Syndrome, yet still we feel a look at both sides is in order, hence we ask the question: was Teal Swan abused? Some people from the Teal Army have come forward and say it is monstrous any one would doubt Teal's claims and that we contacted her alleged abuser, yet if we want truth, then we must always be willing to dare look at facts and investigate accordingly. But now, to begin with, let us first of all presents part of Teal's story as found on her website. (http://tealswan.com/biography; this bio is reprinted virtually word-for-word in chapters two and three of Teal's second book: Shadows before Dawn.)
7		8
8	[start of block quote]In 1989, I was invited to visit the home of a girl who attended the same kindergarten class as I did. Her father was a member of a satanic coven in the area. It was there that I caught the attention of "Doc". I have had to change his name for the purpose of this bio for legal reasons. Doc was in his fifties or sixties at the time. As it turns out, my parents knew him casually already. But unbeknownst to my parents, he was a member of the Blood Covenant, but he had infiltrated a local Satanic coven. Doc was a sociopath with multiple personalities. The only personality that most members of the community saw (including my parents) was a super intelligent, charismatic and successful "do gooder" type of personality. Because of his multiple personalities however, Doc lived a double life. On one hand, he was a likeable, intelligent, local health expert [sic] was obsessed with the study of the human mind; on the other hand, he was a sadistic, [sic] psychopath who attended cult rituals in his spare time. I do not know if he and my parents had crossed paths again before this point, but having developed an obsession with the idea of possessing me, he followed me in his truck when I was riding my pink huffy bike alone one day, pulled me off the bike and raped me for the first time inside a local Mormon stake house….	9	"In 1989, I was invited to visit the home of a girl who attended the same kindergarten class as I did. Her father was a member of a satanic coven in the area. It was there that I caught the attention of "Doc". I have had to change his name for the purpose of this bio for legal reasons. Doc was in his fifties or sixties at the time. As it turns out, my parents knew him casually already. But unbeknownst to my parents, he was a member of the Blood Covenant, but he had infiltrated a local satanic coven. Doc was a sociopath with multiple personalities. The personality that most members of the community saw (including my parents) was a super intelligent, charismatic and successful "do gooder" type of personality. Because of his multiple personalities however, Doc lived a double life. On one hand, he was a likeable, intelligent, local health expert was obsessed with the study of the human mind; on the other hand, he was a sadistic, psychopath who attended cult rituals in his spare time. I do not know if he and my parents had crossed paths again before this point, but having developed an obsession with the idea of possessing me, he followed me in his truck when I was riding my pink huffy bike alone one day, pulled me off the bike and raped me for the first time inside a local Mormon steak house."
9		10
10	[block quote continued]To spare you the graphic details, from age six to nineteen I was tortured physically and sexually in cult rituals. I was raped, deprived of food and forced to undergo three abortions (all fathered and aborted by Doc himself). I was photographed for sadomasochistic pornography, sold to men for sex out of outdoor gas station bathrooms, kept in basements and in a hole in the ground in Doc's back yard [sic]. I was exposed to electro-shock programming, forced to undergo isolation torture and left overnight tied up in lava caves in southern Idaho. I was drugged chronically by Doc with anesthetics (all of which he had unlimited access to due to being a vet by trade). I was chased through the Idaho and Utah wilderness by Doc "playing" tracking games in which he would hunt me, and I would undergo consequences (like having my rib cage cut or being raped) if I was caught. And I was used as a lure to other children that ended up being hurt and on occasion killed. (http://tealswan.com/biography; this bio is reprinted virtually word-for-word in chapters two and three of Teal's second book, Shadows Before Dawn.)[end of block quote]	11	"To spare you the graphic details, from age six to nineteen I was tortured physically and sexually in cult rituals. I was raped, deprived of food and forced to undergo three abortions (all fathered and aborted by Doc himself). I was photographed for sadomasochistic pornography, sold to men for sex out of outdoor gas station bathrooms, kept in basements and in a hole in the ground in Doc's back yard. I was exposed to electro-shock programming, forced to undergo isolation torture and left overnight tied up in lava caves in southern Idaho. I was drugged chronically by Doc with anesthetics (all of which he had unlimited access to due to being a vet by trade). I was chased through the Idaho and Utah wilderness by Doc "playing" tracking games in which he would hunt me, and I would undergo consequences (like having my rib cage cut or being raped) if I was caught. And I was used as a lure to other children that ended up being hurt and on occasion killed."
11		12
		13	Finding "Doc"
12		14
13	Teal has not released "Doc's" real name publicly, but in 2013, she revealed his real name to one of us (Cameron Clark), alongside her ex-boyfriends Jared "Fallon" Dobson and Blake Dyer, her ex-husband Mark Scott, follower Graciela Hernandez, and follower Flavia Paiva. She apparently told the police his name, as well, as implied by The Herald Journal:	15	Teal has not released "Doc's" real name publicly, but in 2013, she revealed his real name to one of us (Cameron Clark) alongside her ex-boyfriends Jared "Fallon" Dobson and Blake Dyer, her ex-husband Mark Scott, follower Graciela Hernandez, and follower Flavia Paiva. She apparently told the police his name, as well, as implied by The Herald Journal:
14		16
15	[start of block quote][W]hen [Teal] took her case to the North Park Police Department and Cache County Attorney's Office in 2005, there apparently wasn't enough evidence to prosecute. Deputy County Attorney Barbara Lachmar acknowledged the existence of Scott's [Scott is one of Teal's former surnames, the other being Bosworth] complaint when I phoned her office this week, but she would not speak about it other than to say "no charges to date have been filed." (http://news.hjnews.com/opinion/editor-s-corner-claims-of-local-torture-cult-got-this/article_401a99ca-581b-11e0-baa4-001cc4c002e0.html)[end of block quote]	17	"[W]hen [Teal] took her case to the North Park Police Department and Cache County Attorney's Office in 2005, there apparently wasn't enough evidence to prosecute. Deputy County Attorney Barbara Lachmar acknowledged the existence of Scott's [Scott is one of Teal's former surnames, the other being Bosworth] complaint when I phoned her office this week, but she would not speak about it other than to say no charges to date have been filed." (http://news.hjnews.com/opinion/editor-s-corner-claims-of-local-torture-cult-got-this/article_401a99ca-581b-11e0-baa4-001cc4c002e0.html)
16		18
17	Furthermore, on June 27, 2015, Cameron received an email from a cameraman for KIVI 6 and FOX 9 in Nampa, Idaho:	19	Furthermore, on June 27, 2015, Cameron received an email from a cameraman for KIVI 6 and FOX 9 in Nampa, Idaho:
18		20
19	[start of block quote]Teal's Husband [sic; Sarbdeep Singh Swan] did give us the name of the alleged abuser. However, without another victim coming forward AND former charges against him... We will not be releasing his name. His initials are [redacted]. Is this correct? [T]he only way we would use Teal's alleged abusers name... would be if formal charges were pressed against him.[end of block quote]	21	"Teal's Husband [Sarbdeep Singh Swan] did give us the name of the alleged abuser. However, without another victim coming forward AND former charges against him, we will not be releasing his name. His initials are [redacted]. Is this correct? The only way we would use Teal's alleged abuser's name, would be if formal charges were pressed against him".
20		22
21	The initials the cameraman sent Cameron match the initials of the name Teal told Cameron.	23	The initials the cameraman sent Cameron match the initials of the name Teal told Cameron.
22		24
23	This comes on the heels of an interview this news agency did of Teal in 2014, accessible at:	25	This comes on the heels of an interview this news agency did of Teal in 2014, accessible at:
24		26
25	Part 1: http://www.scrippsmedia.com/kivitv/news/Teal-Swans-story-of-Satanic-Ritual-abuse-PART-ONE-281032042.html	27	Part 1: http://www.scrippsmedia.com/kivitv/news/Teal-Swans-story-of-Satanic-Ritual-abuse-PART-ONE-281032042.html
26		28
27	Part 2: http://www.scrippsmedia.com/kivitv/news/Teal-Swans-story-of-Satanic-Ritual-abuse-PART-TWO-281032142.html	29	Part 2: http://www.scrippsmedia.com/kivitv/news/Teal-Swans-story-of-Satanic-Ritual-abuse-PART-TWO-281032142.html
28		30
29	Part 3: http://www.scrippsmedia.com/kivitv/news/Teal-Swans-story-of-Satanic-Ritual-abuse-PART-ONE-281032232.html	31	Part 3: http://www.scrippsmedia.com/kivitv/news/Teal-Swans-story-of-Satanic-Ritual-abuse-PART-ONE-281032232.html
30		32
		33	Contacting "Doc"
31		34
32	With his name in hand, the authors of this article were able to contact "Doc." What follows are excerpts from our telephone conversation, followed by more conversation via email:	35	With his name in hand, the authors of this article were able to contact "Doc"; what follows are excerpts from our telephone conversation, followed by more conversation via email.
33		36
34	Phone Conversation between Cameron Clark, John Anderson, and "Doc," on June 28, 2015:	37	Phone Conversation between John Anderson, Cameron Clark and "Doc" on June 28, 2015:
35		38
36	DOC: Hello.	39	DOC: Hello.
37		40
38	CAMERON: Hi. Is this [Doc]?	41	CAMERON: Hi. Is this [Doc]?
39		42
40	DOC: Yeah.	43	DOC: Yeah.
41		44
42	CAMERON: Hi [Doc]. I'm Cameron. We were just corresponding via email. I'm sorry for the late call. Is it a good time to talk?	45	CAMERON: Hi [Doc]. I'm Cameron. We were just corresponding via email. I'm sorry for the late call. Is it a good time to talk?
43		46
44	DOC: I guess. Yeah.	47	DOC: I guess. Yeah.
45		48
46	CAMERON: Alright. Sorry for the call. I know it's kind of random, but it's kind of a sensitive topic, so we kind of wanted to talk to you in person, or at least on the phone. I have a fellow writer from the magazine with me. Is that okay?	49	CAMERON: Alright. Sorry for the call. I know it's kind of random, but it's kind of a sensitive topic, so we kind of wanted to talk to you in person, or at least on the phone. I have a fellow writer from the magazine with me. Is that okay?
47		50
48	DOC: I have a little hard time hearing on the phone.	51	DOC: I have a little hard time hearing on the phone.
49		52
50	CAMERON: Ok.	53	CAMERON: Ok.
51		54
52	DOC: If you can talk slow.	55	DOC: If you can talk slow.
53		56
54	CAMERON: Sure. I have a fellow writer for the magazine with me on the call. Would it be ok if we chatted with you for a little bit?	57	CAMERON: Sure. I have a fellow writer for the magazine with me on the call. Would it be ok if we chatted with you for a little bit?
55		58
56	DOC: Ok.	59	DOC: Ok.
57		60
58	CAMERON: Are you there?	61	CAMERON: Are you there?
59		62
60	JOHN: Yes, I'm here.
61		63
62	CAMERON: Ok. John, do you want to start off?	64	CAMERON: Ok. John, do you want to start off?
63		65
64	JOHN: Sure, so, this is a difficult issue to discuss. Are you familiar with a woman named Teal Scott or Teal Bosworth or Teal Swan? Does that name ring a bell?	66	JOHN: Sure, so, this is a difficult issue to discuss. Are you familiar with a woman named Teal Scott or Teal Bosworth or Teal Swan? Does that name ring a bell?
65		67
66	DOC: Yeah.	68	DOC: Yeah.
67		69
68	JOHN: You do know her?	70	JOHN: You do know her?
69		71
70	DOC: Yup. Uh-huh.	72	DOC: Yup. Uh-huh.
71		73
72	JOHN: And are you aware that she's made accusations against you?	74	JOHN: And are you aware that she's made accusations against you?
73		75
74	DOC: I had heard something like that, yeah.	76	DOC: I had heard something like that, yeah.
75		77
76	JOHN: So we wanted to give you a chance to clear your name, because we're very skeptical of the stories that she's been telling, and apparently she's been telling a number of people, and she's been influencing people, and we want to give you a chance to say your side of the story, and hopefully if her accusations are false, to give you a chance to clear your name.	78	JOHN: So we wanted to give you a chance to clear your name, because we're very skeptical of the stories that she's been telling, and apparently she's been telling a number of people, and she's been influencing people, and we want to give you a chance to say your side of the story, and hopefully if her accusations are false, to give you a chance to clear your name.
77		79
78	CAMERON: And I'm just basically concerned for you, to be honest, because I actually know her very personally, as well, and I believe it's very possible that you could be in danger. And I just wanted you to be able to know that, so that's partially why I wanted to be able to talk to you.	80	CAMERON: And I'm just basically concerned for you, to be honest, because I actually know her very personally, as well, and I believe it's very possible that you could be in danger. And I just wanted you to be able to know that, so that's partially why I wanted to be able to talk to you.
79		81
80	DOC: What particularly is she saying? I don't know exactly what her particular claims are.	82	DOC: What particularly is she saying? I don't know exactly what her particular claims are.
81		83
82	CAMERON: Well, to start off, she's claiming that she was ritually abused and tortured for 13 years by—	84	CAMERON: Well, to start off, she's claiming that she was ritually abused and tortured for 13 years by—
83		85
84	DOC: Yeah, I've heard all that.	86	DOC: Yeah, I've heard all that.
85		87
86	CAMERON: She's telling people your name and information, for one, which is kind of concerning. I mean, these accusations can't really be backed up. And, for two, her soon-to-be-ex-husband now has actually released your name to the media, a media outlet where she did a news interview. And this news outlet actually contacted me, asking about your info, as well, which kind of spurred me to go forward with letting you know what's going on. I witnessed her working one guy up to the point where he wanted to hunt you down and kill you, and I watched her do this in her kitchen. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of what's going on, as far as her accusations are concerned. Is she just really mentally ill, and crazy?	88	CAMERON: She's telling people your name and information, for one, which is kind of concerning. I mean, these accusations can't really be backed up. And, for two, her soon-to-be-ex-husband now has actually released your name to the media, a media outlet where she did a news interview. And this news outlet actually contacted me, asking about your info, as well, which kind of spurred me to go forward with letting you know what's going on. I witnessed her working one guy up to the point where he wanted to hunt you down and kill you, and I watched her do this in her kitchen. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of what's going on, as far as her accusations are concerned. Is she possibly mentally ill?
87		89
88	DOC: She is.	90	DOC: She is.
89		91
90	JOHN: Yeah, that's clear. She's clearly psychotic, and I'm not the first person to say this, so it's very concerning, the things she's saying. And she's allegedly encouraged students of hers to kill themselves, and has been successful in at least one case, so we're very concerned about the influence that she's having. And as Cameron was saying, we're also concerned for your safety, if she's inciting people to potentially hunt you down.	92	JOHN: She's apparently encouraged students of hers to kill themselves and has been successful in at least one case, so we're very concerned about the influence that she's having. And as Cameron was saying, we're also concerned for your safety, if she's inciting people to potentially hunt you down.
91		93
92	DOC: What particular accusations is she making about me?	94	DOC: What particular accusations is she making about me?
93		95
94	CAMERON: She's claiming that you dragged her to satanic rituals, and also a Mormon cult offshoot. She is claiming that you were trying to rid the world of evil, because she had special abilities, and that she is some sort of a Eucharist. She also claimed that you had mentored her, and that you stole a lot of money from her, due to forcing her into prostitution.	96	CAMERON: She's claiming that you dragged her to satanic rituals, and also a Mormon cult offshoot. She is claiming that you were trying to rid the world of evil, because she had special abilities, and that she is some sort of a Eucharist. She also claimed that you had mentored her, and that you stole a lot of money from her, due to forcing her into prostitution.
95		97
96	DOC: I stole a lot of money from her?	98	DOC: I stole a lot of money from her?
97		99
98	CAMERON: Yeah, from forcing her into prostitution, and as an underage model.	100	CAMERON: Yeah, from forcing her into prostitution, and as an underage model.
99		101
100	DOC: [laughs]	102	DOC: [laughs]
101		103
102	CAMERON: She told me that you had taken almost $100,000 in money that she made from these modeling shoots that you set up for her when she was underage.	104	CAMERON: She told me that you had taken almost $100,000 in money that she made from these modeling shoots that you set up for her when she was underage.
103		105
104	JOHN: Injecting her with ketamine, right?	106	(Doc finds out about further accusations.)
105		107
106	CAMERON: Yeah, so your friend, who worked at a morgue, had access to dead bodies.	108	CAMERON: Yeah, so your friend, who worked at a morgue, had access to dead bodies.
107		109
108	DOC: A morgue? You say, a morgue?	110	DOC: A morgue? You say, a morgue?
109		111
110	CAMERON: Yeah, something like an undertaker at a morgue, and therefore he had access to dead bodies. She said that you had sewed her into a corpse for hours as a child, and lord knows that's completely outrageous, because a newborn baby can hardly fit inside a corpse.	112	CAMERON: Yeah, something like an undertaker at a morgue, and therefore he had access to dead bodies. She said that you had sewn her into a corpse for hours as a child, and lord knows that's completely outrageous, because a newborn baby can hardly fit inside a corpse.
111		113
112	DOC: [laughs]	114	DOC: [laughs]
113		115
114	CAMERON: So I don't understand how she thinks that anyone believes these stories, but this is the kind of stuff that's coming out of her mouth. She claimed that she escaped from you, and has since recovered from the Nazi-Germany-style mind control programming you applied on her.	116	CAMERON: So I don't understand how she thinks that anyone believes these stories, but this is the kind of stuff that's coming out of her mouth. She claimed that she escaped from you, and has since recovered from the Nazi-Germany-style mindcontrol programming you applied on her.
115		117
116	DOC: Her parents asked me to try to straighten her out a little bit, when they were having so much trouble, and I started taking her around on my rounds. I'm a veterinarian. We were treating animals. And this is where she got started with the hands-on healing stuff. She actually learned that from me.	118	DOC: Her parents asked me to try to straighten her out a little bit, when they were having so much trouble, and I started taking her around on my rounds. I'm a veterinarian. We were treating animals. And this is where she got started with the hands-on healing stuff. She actually learned that from me.
117		119
118	CAMERON: Ok.	120	CAMERON: Ok.
119		121
120	DOC: And she kind of embellished that. My relationship with her was from her parents. They asked me to help them out. She got obsessed with horses for awhile, and they didn't know anything about horses, so I managed to find an old horse for her, and we set her up with the horse, and did some rides and so forth up in the hills.	122	DOC: And she kind of embellished that. My relationship with her was from her parents. They asked me to help them out. She got obsessed with horses for a while, and they didn't know anything about horses, so I managed to find an old horse for her, and we set her up with the horse, and did some rides and so forth up in the hills.
121		123
122	JOHN: She has said that she went to see a psychotherapist, in I think like Salt Lake City, who has a reputation for basically implanting false memories into her patients' heads, so maybe that's part of what's going on, here, but I wonder: does Teal have reason to be angry at you? Did you have a falling out with her, or something like that?	124	JOHN: She has said that she went to see a psychotherapist, in I think like Salt Lake City, who has a reputation for basically implanting false memories into her patients' heads, so maybe that's part of what's going on, here, but I wonder: does Teal have reason to be angry at you? Did you have a falling out with her, or something like that?
123		125
124	DOC: Not actually, but one of the problems Teal eventually had with me, was that she couldn't sucker me into all of her games, because I'd call her on the carpet for the nonsense she was doing. The problem with Teal is, the reason she is so convincing, is that she believes her fantasies.	126	DOC: Not actually, but one of the problems Teal eventually had with me, was that she couldn't sucker me into all of her games, because I'd call her on the carpet for the nonsense she was doing. The problem with Teal is, the reason she is so convincing, is that she believes her fantasies.
125		127
126	CAMERON: Yeah, that's very apparent.	128	CAMERON: Yeah, that's very apparent.
127		129
128	DOC: And consequently, when she tells these stories, if you're listening to her directly, it seems like she's telling the truth, because to her, it is the truth. But they're totally, completely made up. Where she comes up with the ideas, I don't know, but she's completely disconnected from reality.	130	DOC: And consequently, when she tells these stories, if you're listening to her directly, it seems like she's telling the truth, because to her, it is the truth. But they're totally, completely made up. Where she comes up with the ideas, I don't know, but she's completely disconnected from reality.
129		131
130	CAMERON: I would agree with you there.	132	CAMERON: I would agree with you there.
131		133
132	DOC: And she's not a good liar, from the standpoint of these stories, because she tells all these stories, and you can't match them up. The timeframes overlapped. You know, it's ridiculous. In her bio, for example, she says she was raised in a cabin in the wilderness. Her folks were summer rangers up at Tony Grove Lake. They stayed up there for two or three months in the summer. They're schoolteachers. She didn't live up there—only just in the summer. And she said she had these modeling jobs, and she never really did. She wanted to, but you can't find any ads with her pictures in it. If she was a model, where's all the proof? She also was in Playboy Magazine.	134	DOC: And she's not a good liar, from the standpoint of these stories, because she tells all these stories, and you can't match them up. The timeframes overlapped. You know, it's ridiculous. In her bio, for example, she says she was raised in a cabin in the wilderness. Her folks were summer rangers up at Tony Grove Lake. They stayed up there for two or three months in the summer. They're schoolteachers. She didn't live up there —only just in the summer— and she said she had these modeling jobs which she never really did. She wanted to, but you can't find any ads with her pictures in it. If she was a model, where's all the proof? She also was in Playboy Magazine.
133		135
134	JOHN: She was in Playboy, or she said she was in Playboy?	136	JOHN: She was in Playboy, or she said she was in Playboy?
135		137
136	DOC: Well, as far as she's concerned, she was.	138	DOC: Well, as far as she's concerned, she was.
137		139
138	JOHN and CAMERON: [laugh]
139
140	DOC: And I think some of these young men that she kept running around with were just going along with her stories, and taking nude pictures of her, and so forth, you know, telling her she was going to be in Playboy Magazine, and all that kind of stuff. And then eventually, she's telling the story of how she was in Hugh Hefner's house there, for awhile, lived there.	140	DOC: And I think some of these young men that she kept running around with were just going along with her stories, and taking nude pictures of her, and so forth, you know, telling her she was going to be in Playboy Magazine, and all that kind of stuff. And then eventually, she's telling the story of how she was in Hugh Hefner's house there, for a while, lived there.
141		141
142	JOHN: Well, I searched through Playboy, and I did not find any evidence that she was ever in it.	142	JOHN: Well, I searched through Playboy, and I did not find any evidence that she was ever in it.
143		143
144	DOC: No, she never was. And then there's the story about her having a boyfriend in Alaska.	144	DOC: No, she never was. And then there's the story about her having a boyfriend in Alaska.
145		145
146	CAMERON: Trevor.	146	CAMERON: Trevor.
147		147
148	DOC: And something about her being addicted and that they went through a withdrawal type of thing. Her mother took her to China, and they did a little studying of Qigong and some of the Chinese arts. She graduated early from high school, and when I confronted her about the fact that she really didn't know anything, as we were doing some work in the veterinary thing—she obviously wasn't an accomplished student of any kind, and I kind of questioned her. How the hell did she graduate early, if she didn't know some of these basic things, you know, like math, and some things? And she admitted that she manipulated the teachers to get out early. She said well, you just have to tell them that you need help, and so forth. So, the bottom line is, if she opens her mouth, she's telling a lie.	148	DOC: And something about her being addicted and that they went through a withdrawal type of thing. Her mother took her to China, and they did a little studying of Qigong and some of the Chinese arts. She graduated early from high school, and when I confronted her about the fact that she really didn't know anything, as we were doing some work in the veterinary thing —she obviously wasn't an accomplished student of any kind, and I kind of questioned her. How the hell did she graduate early, if she didn't know some of these basic things, you know, like math, and some things? And she admitted that she manipulated the teachers to get out early. She said well, you just have to tell them that you need help, and so forth. So, the bottom line is, if she opens her mouth, she's telling a lie.
149		149
150	JOHN: Yeah, that's pretty clear.	150	JOHN: Yeah, that's pretty clear.
151		151
152	DOC: She's the reincarnation of Cleopatra.
153		152
154	CAMERON: Oh, I thought it was Sai Baba.
155		153
156	JOHN: [laughs] Probably both.
157		154
158	CAMERON: [laughs] Yeah.
159		155
160	DOC: And it just goes on and on and on and on. The stories are just absurd, unending. You know, it's so unbelievable, you can't understand why she has this believability, for other people to come around and listen to her stories. They're so off the wall. I looked at the thing that the newspaper or whatever reported how she witnessed these little Hispanic kids being tortured or killed, or burned up, or something like that. This is so bizarre. How could this have been happening when she was going to school and graduating early and living in North Logan with two schoolteacher parents, and her brother? It's just totally absurd. [laughs] You can't even counter these stories, because there's nothing—you don't even start out with any foundation. She just makes them up out of complete thin air.	156	DOC: And it just goes on and on and on and on. The stories are just absurd, unending. You know, it's so unbelievable, you can't understand why she has this believability, for other people to come around and listen to her stories. They're so off the wall. I looked at the thing that the newspaper or whatever reported how she witnessed these little Hispanic kids being tortured or killed, or burned up, or something like that. This is so bizarre. How could this have been happening when she was going to school and graduating early and living in North Logan with two schoolteacher parents, and her brother? It's just totally absurd. [laughs] You can't even counter these stories, because there's nothing. You don't even start out with any foundation. She just makes them up out of complete thin air.
161		157
162	JOHN: So it sounds like you've been keeping tabs on her. I mean, how have you been made aware of everything that's been going on with—	158	JOHN: So it sounds like you've been keeping tabs on her. I mean, how you have been made aware of everything that's been going on with–
163		159
164	DOC: I've looked on the Internet to see what had happened to her, and I did that just recently.	160	DOC: I've looked on the Internet to see what had happened to her, and I did that just recently.
165		161
166	JOHN: What inspired you to do that?	162	JOHN: What inspired you to do that?
167		163
168	DOC: I was just wondering what happened to her.	164	DOC: I was just wondering what happened to her.
169		165
170	JOHN: No one's told you she's made these accusations? You've never been contacted by a reporter, or the police, or anything like that?	166	JOHN: No one's told you she's made these accusations? You've never been contacted by a reporter, or the police, or anything like that?
171		167
172	DOC: No.	168	DOC: No.
173		169
174	CAMERON: Well, I'm glad we told you, then.	170	CAMERON: Well, I'm glad we told you, then.
175		171
176	DOC: But she made accusations about her parents.	172	DOC: But she made accusations about her parents.
177		173
178	JOHN: You didn't know that all these accusations that she was making on the Internet about the satanic cult—you didn't know that she was talking about you?	174	JOHN: You didn't know that all these accusations that she was making on the Internet about the satanic cult? You didn't know that she was talking about you?
179		175
180	DOC: No. I had no idea that it was supposed to be me.	176	DOC: No. I had no idea that it was supposed to be me.
181		177
182	CAMERON: She claims she lured the immigrant children herself. That she was part of it, luring them to be involved in these rituals. And she also claimed that she did so well, because she had dissociative identity disorder, where she could compartmentalize it—she claims she was really high-achieving, because she had dissociative alters.	178	CAMERON: She claims she lured the immigrant children herself. That she was part of it, luring them to be involved in these rituals. And she also claimed that she did so well, because she had dissociative identity disorder, where she could compartmentalize it. She claims she was really high-achieving, because she had dissociative alters.
183		179
184	JOHN: Yeah, dissociative identity disorder, in case you don't know, is what they now call multiple personality disorder. She claims she has multiple personalities.	180	JOHN: Yeah, dissociative identity disorder, in case you don't know, is what they now call multiple personality disorder. She claims she's had multiple personalities.
185		181
186	DOC: Yeah, I know about that. I don't think so.	182	DOC: Yeah, I know about that. I don't think so.
187		183
188	JOHN: No, I don't either.	184	JOHN: No, I don't either.
189		185
190	DOC: This is the Teal that I became familiar with, and it's the same Teal all the time. Like I say, she's totally disconnected from reality. Whatever is going on, she makes up stories about it, even when she doesn't have to lie, she does. She makes up stories when it's not necessary.	186	DOC: This is the Teal that I became familiar with, and it's the same Teal all the time. Like I say, she's totally disconnected from reality. Whatever is going on, she makes up stories about it. Even when she doesn't have to lie, she does. She makes up stories when it's not necessary.
191		187
192	JOHN: I'm wondering why she chose you in the first place. I mean, did she flirt with you? Do you think she was interested in you?	188	JOHN: I'm wondering why she chose you in the first place. I mean, did she flirt with you? Do you think she was interested in you?
193		189
194	DOC: She learned some of the healing stuff by going around with me.	190	DOC: She learned some of the healing stuff by going around with me.
195		191
196	CAMERON: Did she want a relationship with you, and get mad at you or something?	192	CAMERON: Did she want a relationship with you, and get mad at you or something?
197		193
198	DOC: No. We never had a falling out.	194	DOC: No. We never had a falling out.
199		195
200	CAMERON: Did she want a relationship, though?	196	CAMERON: Did she want a relationship, though?
201		197
202	DOC: No. I am way older, you know. This was a little baby when I first met her. [laughs] She had her boyfriends bring her up to my place, here in Idaho, years ago—maybe 15—now, I don't know how long it was ago—it was quite awhile—and we had a little discussion about some things, and her boyfriend was doing the same thing that her mother did, they were asking me if I could talk to her, and kind of straighten her out on some things, and he said to me that I was the only one that she couldn't manipulate, that she had a great deal of success manipulating her mother, and she used to take great joy in it. What happened is that she would create situations so that the family got to the point where they couldn't eat meals together, because she would always create a situation for them, so they were all eating independently. They'd come home from work and fix their own meals themselves, and they just couldn't eat a meal together, because she would turn it into some kind of a deal, and she would purposely try to come up with something to upset her mother.	198	DOC: No. I am way older, you know. This was a little baby when I first met her [laughs]. She had her boyfriend bring her up to my place here in Idaho, years ago, maybe 15, I don't know how long ago it was, it was quite awhile, and we had a little discussion about some things, and her boyfriend was doing the same thing that her mother did, they were asking me if I could talk to her, and kind of straighten her out on some things, and he said to me that I was the only one that she couldn't manipulate, that she had a great deal of success manipulating her mother, and she used to take great joy in it. What happened is that she would create situations so that the family got to the point where they couldn't eat meals together, because she would always create a situation for them, so they were all eating independently. They'd come home from work and fix their own meals themselves, and they just couldn't eat a meal together, because she would turn it into some kind of a deal, and she would purposely try to come up with something to upset her mother.
203		199
204	CAMERON: I believe that. I've seen her do that.	200	CAMERON: I believe that. I've seen her do that.
205		201
206	DOC: It was just like a game that she played, and then she would say something, and her mother would kind of have this reaction, and then she'd turn to me and smile—like, "look what I did."	202	DOC: It was just like a game that she played, and then she would say something, and her mother would kind of have this reaction, and then she'd turn to me and smile like: "look what I did."
207		203
208	CAMERON: [laughs] I know exactly what that looks like.	204	CAMERON: [laughs] I know exactly what that looks like.
209		205
210	DOC: And her boyfriend, like I say, he said I was the only one that she couldn't wrap around her fingers, and I was always calling her on the carpet and saying bullshit, you know, and that's not right.	206	DOC: And her boyfriend, he said I was the only one that she couldn't wrap around her fingers, and I was always calling her on the carpet and saying bullshit, you know, and that's not right.
211		207
212	CAMERON: So you're the only person she was afraid of, then?	208	CAMERON: So you're the only person she was afraid of, then?
213		209
214	DOC: She wasn't afraid of me. She just couldn't manipulate me. Everybody else, she could get them to do things that she wanted them to do, and she couldn't manipulate me, so basically, I think that's why she disconnected, eventually, and didn't want to be around me, because she couldn't get anything out of me.	210	DOC: She wasn't afraid of me. She just couldn't manipulate me. Everybody else, she could get them to do things that she wanted them to do, and she couldn't manipulate me, so basically, I think that's why she disconnected, eventually, and didn't want to be around me, because she couldn't get anything out of me.
215		211
216	JOHN: Yeah, I'm wondering about your last interaction with her. Were you confronting her about her lying and manipulation, or drug use? I mean, was there some particular topic of that conversation that upset her?	212	JOHN: Yeah, I'm wondering about your last interaction with her. Were you confronting her about her lying and manipulation, or drug use? I mean, was there some particular topic of that conversation that upset her?
217		213
218	CAMERON: Did she steal drugs, like ketamine, from you?	214	CAMERON: Did she steal drugs, like ketamine, from you?
219		215
220	DOC: I don't know the details about, like you say, drug use, whether she took drugs, or anything like that. I wasn't around at that time in her life, with all the boyfriends, and the group housing [with her intentional community], and all that kind of stuff. I was long gone, by that time. I only knew about that in retrospect, from what I saw on the Internet.	216	DOC: I don't know the details about, like you say, drug use, whether she took drugs, or anything like that. I wasn't around at that time in her life, with all the boyfriends, and the group housing with her intentional community, and all that kind of stuff. I was long gone, by that time. I only know about that in retrospect, from what I saw on the Internet.
221		217
222	JOHN: I'm just trying to figure out what she was so upset with you about. What is it that you confronted her about that upset her so much?	218	JOHN: I'm just trying to figure out what she was so upset with you about. What is it that you confronted her about that upset her so much?
223		219
224	DOC: I have no idea. In person, we never had any falling out, or anything.	220	DOC: I have no idea. In person, we never had any falling out, or anything.
225		221
226	CAMERON: She corroborates that, actually. She says she escaped.	222	CAMERON: She corroborates that, actually. She says she escaped.
227		223
228	DOC: Escaped?	224	DOC: Escaped?
229		225
230	CAMERON: She claims you had her tied up in holes in your backyard, and whatnot.	226	CAMERON: She claims you had her tied up in holes in your backyard, and whatnot.
231		227
232	DOC: [laughs]	228	DOC: [laughs]
233		229
234	CAMERON: The night that she said she got away, she said it was because you made a mistake, and you didn't dose her up with an adequate amount of ketamine. You used to regularly shoot her up with ketamine, according to her. She claimed it was because you had access to it, as a veterinarian. She said that you didn't give her the right dose of ketamine, and so she noticed there were some marks on a dead body that you were forcing her to have sex with. She claims that you tried convincing her that she had been responsible for killing the man, but she noticed that the body lividity and the blood pooling on the body didn't match up with the timing of when you said she allegedly killed the man. So she claimed that her reality crashed once she realized you had been lying to her, and she got in her car high on ketamine, and drove eight hours away to Blake's house, never to come back. That was what she said.	230	CAMERON: The night that she said she got away, she said it was because you made a mistake, and you didn't dose her up with an adequate amount of ketamine. You used to regularly shoot her up with ketamine, according to her. She claimed it was because you had access to it, as a veterinarian. She said that you didn't give her the right dose of ketamine, and so she noticed there were some marks on a dead body that you were forcing her to have sex with. She claims that you tried convincing her that she had been responsible for killing the man, but she noticed that the body lividity and the blood pooling on the body didn't match up with the timing of when you said she allegedly killed the man. So she claimed that her reality crashed once she realized you had been lying to her, and she got in her car high on ketamine, and drove eight hours away to Blake's house, never to come back. That was what she said.
235		231
236	DOC: She got into her car?	232	DOC: She got into her car?
237		233
238	CAMERON: Yes, high on ketamine, and drove off, to go to live with Blake.	234	CAMERON: Yes, high on ketamine, and drove off, to go to live with Blake.
239		235
240	DOC: Well, number one, she never had a car. She had boyfriends who drove her around, from here to there, but Teal never owned a car.	236	DOC: Well, number one, she never had a car. She had boyfriends who drove her around, from here to there, but Teal never owned a car.
241		237
242	JOHN: And how did it start? Didn't she say something like when she was, I don't know, five or six, she came to a sleepover at his house, and then, with his daughter—	238	JOHN: And how did it start? Didn't she say something like when she was, I don't know, five or six, she came to a sleepover at his house, and then, with his daughter.
243		239
244	CAMERON: At a friend's house, she said that you were there, and you knew the friend's father. She said that is when you first had access to her, and that you guys took child pornography pictures with her and her friend, when she was four or five years old. She said that eventually, she was riding her bike, when she was six years old, when you had seen her. You had stopped her on her bicycle, dragged her into a Mormon stake house, where you raped her at six years old, and sent her along her way.	240	CAMERON: At a friend's house, she said that you were there, and you knew the friend's father. She said that is when you first had access to her, and that you guys took child pornography pictures with her and her friend, when she was four or five years old. She said that eventually, she was riding her bike, when she was six years old, when you had seen her. You had stopped her on her bicycle, dragged her into a Mormon steak house, where you raped her at six years old, and sent her along her way.
245		241
246	DOC: We were friends, her mother actually worked for me, years ago, before she got married, and before Teal was born. And so we were friends with the family for years and years, and we were around when Teal was born. We saw her growing up. I got a horse for her. We helped with managing the horse, because her parents didn't know anything about it.	242	DOC: We were friends, her mother actually worked for me, years ago, before she got married, and before Teal was born. And so we were friends with the family for years and years, and we were around when Teal was born. We saw her growing up. I got a horse for her. We helped with managing the horse, because her parents didn't know anything about it.
247		243
248	CAMERON: So her parents just spoiled her, and you just called her out on her crap, her whole life, from the time she was little? And you spent time with her, and you were the only one, because her parents didn't really discipline her?	244	CAMERON: So her parents just spoiled her, and you just called her out on her crap, her whole life, from the time she was little? And you spent time with her, and you were the only one, because her parents didn't really discipline her?
249		245
250	DOC: Well, this was in her early life, when they were working at Tony Grove Lake. We would go there sometimes, and ride horses, and Teal was just a toddler, you know, when we put her on the horse, in front of us, and rode around, and that kind of thing. And then I moved to Idaho, and we kind of lost touch for several years. And then eventually, her mother called me, and said they were having all this trouble with Teal, and could I please come and talk to her, because I seemed to be the only one that could straighten her out, in their opinion, from their experience.	246	DOC: Well, this was in her early life, when they were working at Tony Grove Lake. We would go there sometimes, and ride horses, and Teal was just a toddler, you know, when we put her on the horse, in front of us, and rode around, and that kind of thing. And then I moved to Idaho, and we kind of lost touch for several years. And then eventually, her mother called me, and said they were having all this trouble with Teal, and could I please come and talk to her, because I seemed to be the only one that could straighten her out, in their opinion, from their experience.
251		247
252	CAMERON: Did you have to straighten her out because she appeared to have hands-on healing capabilities, and did she say she could see things?	248	CAMERON: Did you have to straighten her out because she appeared to have hands on healing capabilities, and did she say she could see things?
253		249
254	DOC: Their problem was that she had all sorts of problems at school, and they couldn't control her. They couldn't get her to do anything. She wouldn't do chores around the house. They couldn't discipline her. She refused to obey the rules. On and on and on. And so, I went down, and I started taking her around on calls treating animals, and showed her a little bit about healing, and had her work with me on treating some of the horses, and so forth.	250	DOC: Their problem was that she had all sorts of problems at school, and they couldn't control her. They couldn't get her to do anything. She wouldn't do chores around the house. They couldn't discipline her. She refused to obey the rules. On and on and on. And so, I went down, and I started taking her around on calls treating animals, and showed her a little bit about healing, and had her work with me on treating some of the horses, and so forth.
255		251
256	JOHN: How old was she, at that time?	252	JOHN: How old was she, at that time?
257		253
258	DOC: Oh, this would be, like, 13 or 14, or something like that, maybe. And then, eventually, when I—I don't know—I shouldn't be telling you what I told her parents, because that's kind of privileged information, and since I don't know who you are.	254	DOC: Oh, this would be, like, 13 or 14, or something like that, maybe. And then, eventually, when I ... I don't know, I shouldn't be telling you what I told her parents, because that's kind of privileged information, and since I don't know who you are–
259		255
260	JOHN: Well, it couldn't be any more privileged than the things she's telling about you.	256	JOHN: Well, it couldn't be any more privileged than the things she's telling about you.
261		257
262	CAMERON: Yeah, I actually met her parents, as well. They're very nice people.	258	CAMERON: Yeah, I actually met her parents, as well. They're very nice people.
263		259
264	DOC: Well, I tried to tell her parents what the problem was. They didn't like it, because I basically kind of put some of the responsibility on them, and so they kind of broke off our friendship, when I finally said what I thought was the problem. And then I didn't see her for years and years. I haven't seen her for a long, long time.	260	DOC: Well, I tried to tell her parents what the problem was. They didn't like it, because I basically kind of put some of the responsibility on them, and so they kind of broke off our friendship, when I finally said what I thought was the problem. And then I didn't see her for years and years. I haven't seen her for a long, long time.
265		261
266	JOHN: So maybe that's why she was so upset with you, because of what you told her parents.	262	JOHN: So maybe that's why she was so upset with you, because of what you told her parents.
267		263
268	DOC: No, I don't think she knew I told her parents. Number one, she wasn't upset with me. She just made the whole thing up. We never had a falling out. We never had an argument. We never had any kind of negative things. The last time we were friends—I have a letter—I got letters from her where she claimed that she loved me, and that I was the only one that understood her, and that kind of stuff. So we didn't part ways with any kind of negative feeling at all. In fact, I think I still have—I probably could find a letter someplace—it's a stupid, teenager kind of thing—but no, she wasn't mad at me. This was all made up since years ago.	264	DOC: No, I don't think she knew I told her parents. Number one, she wasn't upset with me. She just made the whole thing up. We never had a falling out. We never had an argument. We never had any kind of negative things. You can't believe anything that comes out of her mouth. The last time we were friends, I have a letter, I got letters from her where she claimed that she loved me, and that I was the only one that understood her, and that kind of stuff. So we didn't part ways with any kind of negative feeling at all. In fact, I think I still have, I probably could find a letter someplace, it's a stupid, teenager kind of thing, but no, she wasn't mad at me. This was all made up since years ago.
269		265
270	JOHN: When's the last time you corresponded with her?
271		266
272	DOC: And the whole thing about the Mormon—What's that?	267	And the whole thing about the Mormon, what's that?
273		268
274	JOHN: Sorry, go ahead. The whole thing about the Mormon?	269	JOHN: The whole thing about the Mormon?
275		270
276	DOC: I'm not a Mormon!	271	DOC: I'm not a Mormon!
277		272
278	CAMERON and JOHN: [laugh]	273	CAMERON and JOHN: [laugh]
279		274
280	JOHN: And you're not a satanist, or a Nazi, just for the record?	275	JOHN: And you're not a Satanist, or a Nazi, just for the record?
281		276
282	DOC: Not that I am aware of. I'm not a Mormon. I don't have anything to do with the Mormon church. I never have. All of that is a confabulation that she's just come up with. There weren't any negative things. She's made that up. She's made every frickin' thing up. You can't believe anything that comes out of her mouth.	277	DOC: Not that I am aware of. I'm not a Mormon. I don't have anything to do with the Mormon Church. I never have. All of that is a confabulation that she's just come up with. There weren't any negative things. She's made that up. She's made every frickin' thing up. You can't believe anything that comes out of her mouth.
283		278
284	CAMERON: Yeah, I agree.	279	CAMERON: Yeah, I agree.
285		280
286	JOHN: So when was the last time you corresponded with her? How old was she, and what happened?	281	JOHN: So when was the last time you corresponded with her? How old was she, and what happened?
287		282
288	DOC: I have a hard time remembering when somebody was a certain age, but it was years ago, and she called me, and she was going to the bunny house, or whatever that—what's his name?—Hugh Hefner's place... And that's also when she told me that she was going to be in the next issue of Playboy. And that's the last contact I ever had with her, and that's, maybe, 10 or 15 years ago, or something like that. She had at least two boyfriends bring her up here for visits, for one reason or another, you know, short little day things: stop by, say hello, that kind of thing. She had a boyfriend that was deaf.	283	DOC: I have a hard time remembering when somebody was a certain age, but it was years ago, and she called me, and she was going to the bunny house, or whatever that, what's his name? Hugh Hefner's place ... And that's also when she told me that she was going to be in the next issue of Playboy. And that's the last contact I ever had with her, and that's, maybe, 10 or 15 years ago, or something like that. She had at least two boyfriends bring her up here for visits, for one reason or another, you know, short little day things: stop by, say hello, that kind of thing. She had a boyfriend that was deaf.
289		284
290	CAMERON: She's also mentioned to me she had a deaf boyfriend, at one point.	285	CAMERON: She's also mentioned to me she had a deaf boyfriend, at one point.
291		286
292	DOC: He brought her up here one time, and another boyfriend brought her up here one time, and was asking me to talk to her, and in none of those cases was there any negative thing. It was all congenial, just, you know: "How are you doing?" "I'm fine." Like I say, if you try to make any sense out of any of it, you're gonna run into a lot of blind alleys, because none of it has any basis in the truth, whatsoever. I mean, not even to begin with. It doesn't start in a real situation. She sits around and just dreams stuff up.	287	DOC: He brought her up here one time, and another boyfriend brought her up here one time, and was asking me to talk to her, and in none of those cases was there any negative thing. It was all congenial, just, you know: "How are you doing?" "I'm fine." Like I say, if you try to make any sense out of any of it, you're gonna run into a lot of blind alleys, because none of it has any basis in the truth, whatsoever. I mean, not even to begin with. It doesn't start in a real situation. She sits around and just dreams stuff up.
293		288
294	JOHN: She seems to have become dangerous. She's got thousands, if not millions, of followers, and as I mentioned, she's allegedly encouraged people to kill themselves.	289	JOHN: She's become very dangerous. She's got thousands, if not millions of followers, and as I mentioned, she's convinced people to actually literally go and kill themselves.
295		290
296	CAMERON: Not only is she convincing people to kill themselves, but as I said before, she gets her men very worked up. Her boyfriends can get very worked up, when it comes to these abuse stories. One in particular threatened to hunt you down, and kill you, and I watched her eyes light up. It's like she loves it. She gets off on seeing how far they'll go for her. It's like a game, and I just think it's a very dangerous game she's playing. She's playing with fire, really, and it's not a secret who she's saying that you are. She's basically released your identity, said that you were a prominent veterinarian in the Idaho area, and identified a friend of yours as a mortician of sorts—	291	CAMERON: Not only is she encouraging people to kill themselves, but as I said before, she gets her men very worked up. Her boyfriends can get very worked up, when it comes to these abuse stories. One in particular threatened to hunt you down, and kill you, and I watched her eyes light up. It's like she loves it. She gets off on seeing how far they'll go for her. It's like a game, and I just think it's a very dangerous game she's playing. She's playing with fire, really, and it's not a secret who she's saying that you are. She's basically released your identity, said that you were a prominent veterinarian in the Idaho area, and identified a friend of yours as a mortician of sorts—
297		292
298	DOC: As a mortician? [laughs]	293	DOC: As a mortician? [laughs]
299		294
300	CAMERON: —who worked at a crematory of some kind, and so had access to dead bodies.	295	CAMERON: —who worked at a crematory of some kind, and so had access to dead bodies.
301		296
302	DOC: [laughs] Well, see, there is no basis for that whatsoever. Number one, there wasn't a crematorium in my town at that time, and I don't have any friends in that realm. It doesn't even start with any kind of connection with her reality. It's just totally made up. [laughs] It's just like her modeling career, and the torture, the death cults, or whatever it was she said, is totally fabricated. It never happened. There wasn't any, even a little inclination that anything like that happened. She made it up totally. She's a sick individual.	297	DOC: [laughs] Well, see, there is no basis for that whatsoever. Number one, there wasn't a crematorium in my town at that time, and I don't have any friends in that realm. It doesn't even start with any kind of connection with her reality. It's just totally made up. [laughs] It's just like her modeling career, and the torture, the death cults, or whatever it was she said, is totally fabricated. It never happened. There wasn't any, even a little inclination that anything like that happened. She made it up totally. She's a sick individual.
303		298
304	CAMERON: You think maybe if she gets the help she needs, and maybe is in a padded room with supervision and medication, that she might be better off than out there leading a bunch of people off a cliff, like a virtual Jonestown? Because that's exactly what seems to be going on and brewing down there. She's got this new age alien cult started.	299	CAMERON: You think that if she gets the help she needs, with supervision and medication, that she might be better off than out there leading a bunch of people off a cliff, like a virtual Jonestown? Because that's exactly what seems to be going on and brewing down there. She's got this new age alien cult started.
305		300
306	DOC: Where is she living now?	301	DOC: Where is she living now?
307		302
308	CAMERON: Utah.	303	CAMERON: Utah.
309		304
310	DOC: In Utah?	305	DOC: In Utah?
311		306
312	CAMERON: Yeah.	307	CAMERON: Yeah.
313		308
314	DOC: Like what, Park City?	309	DOC: Like what, Park City?
315		310
316	CAMERON: Yeah.	311	CAMERON: Yeah.
317		312
318	DOC: That's another one, where she was on the Olympic ski team. [laughs]	313	DOC: That's another one, where she was on the Olympic ski team. [laughs]
319		314
320	JOHN: Is that true?	315	JOHN: Is that true?
321		316
322	DOC: No. [laughs]
323
324	CAMERON: It's not true? [laughs]	317	CAMERON: It's not true? [laughs]
325		318
326	DOC: There is nothing about Teal that is true! You can just take it all and forget it, because nothing she says is true!	319	DOC: There is nothing about Teal that is true! You can just take it all and forget it, because nothing she says is true!
327		320
328	CAMERON: I know that. It wouldn't be such a problem if it was just a crazy person on her own, but like I said, she's got a huge following, and a lot of this stuff is downright dangerous. A lot of her advice is dangerous, and there's a certain charisma about crazy people. Also, for your own safety reasons, I would be concerned. I'm surprised nobody has told you what's going on sooner than this, that she's named you, specifically.	321	CAMERON: I know that. It wouldn't be such a problem if it was just a crazy person on her own, but like I said, she's got a huge following, and a lot of this stuff is downright dangerous. A lot of her advice is dangerous, and there's a certain charisma about her. Also, for your own safety reasons, I would be concerned. I'm surprised nobody has told you what's going on sooner than this, that she named you, specifically.
329		322
330	JOHN: She named him to the police and the media, is that right?	323	JOHN: She named him to the police and the media, is that right?
331		324
332	CAMERON: Her husband that she's now divorcing—her third husband—is actually the one that reported your name to the local news media, in Nampa, Idaho. It's an offshoot of Fox News, and she got air time for this. They haven't released—they can't release, I don't think, your name, legally, I wouldn't think. But they do have it. And they actually emailed me, and asked me to corroborate your identity, as well. And I said I'm not releasing his name, because there's nothing that she says that indicated that she's telling the truth. And I actually have seen how he could be in danger. And then they assured me that they were going to do some background checks, and they weren't going to release the information on you. But they did let me know that her husband already named you, and they were looking into it.	325	CAMERON: Her husband that she's now divorcing, her third husband, is actually the one that reported your name to the local news media, in Nampa, Idaho. It's an offshoot of Fox News, and she got air time for this. They haven't released – they can't release, I don't think, your name, legally, I wouldn't think. But they do have it. And they actually emailed me, and asked me to corroborate your identity, as well. And I said I'm not releasing his name, because there's nothing that she says that indicated that she's telling the truth. And I actually have seen how he could be in danger. And then they assured me that they were going to do some background checks, and they weren't going to release the information on you. But they did let me know that her husband already named you, and they were looking into it.
333		326
334	JOHN: And someone called the police, as well, right?	327	JOHN: And someone called the police, as well, right?
335		328
336	CAMERON: Yeah.	329	CAMERON: Yeah.
337		330
338	DOC: What's that?	331	DOC: What's that?
339		332
340	JOHN: Who called the police?	333	JOHN: Who called the police?
341		334
342	CAMERON: Teal.	335	CAMERON: Teal.
343		336
344	DOC: Really?	337	DOC: Really?
345		338
346	JOHN: Teal called the police, and did she name him by name?	339	JOHN: Teal called the police, and did she name him by name?
347		340
348	CAMERON: Yes, she reported him. There is an open investigation, that started sometime around 2005, 2006. No charges have been filed, but you and these claims were looked into.	341	CAMERON: Yes, she reported him. There is an open investigation that started sometime around 2005, 2006. No charges have been filed, but you and these claims were looked into.
349		342
350	JOHN: And that's in the news, you can actually find that on the Internet. It doesn't have your name on the Internet, but apparently the police have your name, and have been looking into it. I'm surprised they haven't contacted you.	343	JOHN: And that's in the news, you can actually find that on the Internet. It doesn't have your name on the Internet, but apparently the police have your name, and have been looking into it. I'm surprised they haven't contacted you.
351		344
352	CAMERON: Yeah.	345	CAMERON: Yeah.
353
354	DOC: Well, I don't know what to say.
355		346
356	JOHN: I know this is all probably somewhat of a shock, although not totally, because you know what she's capable of.	347	JOHN: I know this is all probably somewhat of a shock, although not totally, because you know what she's capable of.
357		348
358	DOC: The shock is that anyone would take anything that she says as being legitimate.	349	DOC: The shock is that anyone would take anything that she says as being legitimate.
359		350
360	CAMERON: [laughs]	351	CAMERON: [laughs]
361		352
362	JOHN: It is shocking, and she has millions—literally millions—of people watching her videos on YouTube, and she has people living with her, so that's what concerns us, is the level of influence she has, despite her obvious insanity. She's been in the media, she's been on the news, she was interviewed by a Fox news affiliate—	353	JOHN: It is shocking, and she has millions —literally— of people watching her videos on YouTube, and she has people living with her, so that's what concerns us, is the level of influence she has, despite her obvious insanity. She's been in the media, she's been on the news and she was interviewed by a Fox news affiliate.
363		354
364	CAMERON: KIVI TV in Nampa, Idaho. It's an offshoot of Fox.	355	CAMERON: KIVITV in Nampa, Idaho. It's an offshoot of Fox.
365		356
366	JOHN: —where she's saying horrible things about you, without mentioning your name.	357	JOHN: And someone called the police, as well, right: where she's saying horrible things about you, without mentioning your name?
367		358
368	CAMERON: Not in public, but she says it in private, so she's getting these followers all worked up, and then she's letting your name loose behind the scenes, and it's dangerous. It's downright dangerous for you, and I just don't know how long it's gonna go on before something really bad happens. It's already happened with suicides galore. There's been at least two documented suicides.	359	CAMERON: Not in public, but she says it in private, so she's getting these followers all worked up, and then she's letting your name loose behind the scenes, and it's dangerous. It's downright dangerous for you, and I just don't know how long it will on before something really bad happens. It's already happened with suicides galore. There's been at least two documented suicides.
369		360
370	DOC: What is the psychology, here, of these people who you call her followers? They have to be a little bit crazy, themselves, don't they?	361	DOC: What is the psychology here, of these people who you call her followers? They have to be a little bit crazy, themselves, don't they?
371		362
372	CAMERON: Well, she's playing to their vulnerabilities. She's claiming to have endured all of these traumas, and made it through to the other side. So she's like this inspirational story to a lot of wounded people. So of course she's already attracting wounded people, and then you add this groupthink mentality, and this crazy person telling them all the answers to life. So of course, you've got a Manson-like following, and a lot of them are off their rockers, yes. But she's just adding fuel to the fire. And I do think that that's a problem. She needs to be stopped. She needs to stop doing what she's doing, at least, being a social danger—because granted, these people are responsible for following, but at the same point, you know—it's kind of like trying to cut the head off a snake, really.	363	CAMERON: Well, she's playing to their vulnerabilities. She's claiming to have endured all of these traumas, and made it through to the other side. So she's like this inspirational story to a lot of wounded people. So of course she's already attracting wounded people, and then you add this groupthink mentality, and this crazy person telling them all the answers to life. So of course, you've got a Manson-like following, and a lot of them are off their rockers, yes. But she's just adding fuel to the fire. And I do think that that's a problem. She needs to be stopped. She needs to stop doing what she's doing, at least, being a social danger. Granted, these people are responsible for following, but at the same point, you know, it's kind of like trying to cut the head off a snake, really.
373		364
374	JOHN: You've heard of Jonestown, Jim Jones?	365	JOHN: You've heard of Jonestown, Jim Jones?
375		366
376	DOC: Yeah.	367	DOC: Yeah.
377		368
378	JOHN: We're worried about another Jonestown, honestly.	369	JOHN: Well, we're worried about another Jonestown, honestly.
379		370
380	CAMERON: Pretty much. She's got a lot of suicidal ideation. I don't know if you noticed. She was a cutter. She had a lot of emotional problems, supposedly, already—	371	CAMERON: Pretty much. She's got a lot of suicidal ideation. I don't know if you noticed. She was a cutter. She had a lot of emotional problems, supposedly, already–
381		372
382	DOC: Yup.	373	DOC: Yup.
383		374
384	CAMERON: —and she's passing that along to her followers: it's okay, suicide's okay, it's a totally valid option….	375	CAMERON: And she's passing that along to her followers: it's okay, suicide's okay, it's a totally valid option.
385		376
386	Teal's Letter to "Doc": Page One	377	A letter Doc presented us with, that was written to him by Teal Swan in 2004.
387		378
		379	This letter has been described in the following pages for easy reading and are presented alongside the original handwritten pages. The letters have been transcribed as is and hence typography and any errors in the original have been preserved.
388		380
		381	First page transcription:
389		382
390	Dearest [Doc], Noone [sic] has decided what is an easier Sanity, Freedom or Cages with a scheduled feeding and exercize [sic] time. I wish too much... To See the world in a grain of sand and the universe in a Sand Castle. I wish I didn't drown people in the overflow from this little cup I plan to drink my life from. Didn't only take a burlap sack From Idea to Idea and Leave them, Burning all bridges So None of them Could follow. I wish my Anger wasn't So Acidic and Sadness So basic, that Both of them burn. I wish I wasn't left wanting of a time where I still Believed an ocean existed inside every spiral shell, and the sound there was waves instead of a change in the air pressure. I wish I wasn't flawed, but still had places to go towards Self Improval [sic] however small. So I Could Stare at the grain of Sand and feel the world. Instead of walking beaches and still feeling small or Large, depending on the day.	383	Dearest [Doc.], Noone has decided what is an easier Sanity, Freedom or Cages with a scheduled feeding and exercise time. I wish too much... To See the world in a grain of sand and the universe in a Sand Castle. I wish I didn't drown people in the overflow from this little cup I plan to drink my life from. Didn't only take a burlap sack From Idea to Idea and Leave them, Burning all bridges So None of them Could follow. I wish my Anger wasn't So Acidic and Sadness So basic, that Both of them burn. I wish I wasn't left wanting of a time where I still Believed an ocean existed inside every spiral shell, and the sound there was waves instead of a change in the air pressure. I wish I wasn't flawed, but still had places to go towards Self Improval however small. So I Could Stare at the grain of Sand and feel the world. Instead of walking beaches and still feeling small or Large, depending on the day.
391		384
392	I Made the United States Telemark Ski Team. And placed 4th overall at Nationalls [sic] this year (my first Big Competition)	385	I made the United States Telemark Ski Team. And placed 4th overall at Nationalls this year (my first Big Competition)
393		386
		387	Teal's skiing career investigated:
394		388
395	According to Garrett Long, president of the US National Telemark Ski Association (USTSA), it is impossible for Teal to have finished in fourth place, overall, at this competition, because "she finished fifth and eighth [in the events in which she competed], which clearly doesn't add up to fourth." Mr. Long's claim is corroborated by http://www.ustsa.org/events/results/results-2005-prior, which reports that the USTSA National Championship at the end of the 2003/2004 season consisted of four events: (1) Slalom, (2) Sprint Classic, (3) Giant Slalom, and (4) Classic. Teal did not compete in either the Slalom or Classic. She finished in last place in the Sprint Classic (of the eight competitors who completed the course without being disqualified) and the Giant Slalom (of the five competitors who completed the course without being disqualified).	389	According to Garrett Long, president of the US National Telemark Ski Association (USTSA), it is impossible for Teal to have finished in fourth place, overall, at this competition, because "she finished fifth and eighth [in the events in which she competed], which clearly doesn't add up to fourth." Mr. Long's claim is corroborated by http://www.ustsa.org/events/results/results-2005-prior which reports that the USTSA National Championship at the end of the 2003/2004 season consisted of four events: (1) Slalom, (2) Sprint Classic, (3) Giant Slalom, and (4) Classic. Teal did not compete in either the Slalom or Classic. She finished in last place in the Sprint Classic (of the eight competitors who completed the course without being disqualified) and the Giant Slalom (of the five competitors who completed the course without being disqualified).
396		390
397	Furthermore, her times were slower than every woman who completed these courses without being disqualified in the non-elite divisions, making her slower than every single woman who completed an event without being disqualified, in every event in which she competed. Teal's results at the National Championship at the end of the 2004/2005 season were similar. This competition also consisted of four events: (1) Outdoor Research Slalom, (2) Smith Optics Sprint Classic, (3) Voilé Giant Slalom, and (4) Icebreaker Classic. Of the seven competitors in the Outdoor Research Slalom, she finished in last place. Of the eight competitors in the Smith Optics Sprint Classic, she finished in last place. Of the seven competitors in the Voilé Giant Slalom, she finished in last place. She didn't compete in the Icebreaker Classic. Of the seven women who competed in the elite category, she finished in sixth place, overall.	391	Furthermore, her times were slower than every woman who completed these courses without being disqualified in the non-elite divisions, making her slower than every single woman who completed an event without being disqualified, in every event in which she competed. Teal's results at the National Championship at the end of the 2004/2005 season were similar. This competition also consisted of four events: (1) Outdoor Research Slalom, (2) Smith Optics Sprint Classic, (3) Voilé Giant Slalom, and (4) Icebreaker Classic. Of the seven competitors in the Outdoor Research Slalom, she finished in last place. Of the eight competitors in the Smith Optics Sprint Classic, she finished in last place. Of the seven competitors in the Voilé Giant Slalom, she finished in last place. She didn't compete in the Icebreaker Classic. Of the seven women who competed in the elite category, she finished in sixth place, overall.
398		392
399	The only thing keeping her from finishing in last place, apparently, is the fact that the last-place competitor competed in fewer events than Teal. Mr. Long continues: "I do not have the records to confirm [whether Teal was given a team spot in the 2004/2005 season.] What I can tell you is that she was given a team spot in the 2005/2006 season, but didn't compete in any of the events, including Nationals, in that season, and wouldn't have been able to achieve the fourth place finish in 2003/2004.	393	The only thing keeping her from finishing in last place, apparently, is the fact that the last-place competitor competed in fewer events than Teal. Mr. Long continues: "I do not have the records to confirm [whether Teal was given a team spot in the 2004/2005 season]. What I can tell you is that she was given a team spot in the 2005/2006 season, but didn't compete in any of the events, including Nationals, in that season, and wouldn't have been able to achieve the fourth place finish in 2003/2004".
400		394
401	"After separating from USSA [United States Ski and Snowboard Association], Telemark had become a less recognized sport, where a B team spot, as opposed to an A team spot, would not necessarily have been competitive. Just showing up to competition in 2004/2005 was sufficient to get her a spot [on the team] in 2005/2006, but she didn't compete in any events in the 2005/2006 season, according to our records. In the 2005/2006 season, we're showing four sanctioned events [that took place], and she competed in none of them." Mr. Long also explained that the fact that Teal competed in the "elite" category doesn't imply anything about her skill, because there were no requirements to qualify in that category. Competitors chose the category in which they wanted to compete.	395	"After separating from USSA [United States Ski and Snowboard Association], Telemark had become a less recognized sport, where a B team spot, as opposed to an A team spot, would not necessarily have been competitive. Just showing up to competition in 2004/2005 was sufficient to get her a spot [on the team] in 2005/2006, but she didn't compete in any events in the 2005/2006 season, according to our records. In the 2005/2006 season, we're showing four sanctioned events [that took place], and she competed in none of them." Mr. Long also explained that the fact that Teal competed in the "elite" category doesn't imply anything about her skill, because there were no requirements to qualify in that category. Competitors chose the category in which they wanted to compete.
402		396
403	Doc also writes:	397	Doc also writes:
404		398
405	[start of block quote]She made some claims about qualifying the Ski Team? I know Teal and can tell you that she does not have the ability to sustain an effort for any length of time. She was obsessed with horses but her riding instructor gave up on her because she would not work at improving her riding skills. She seriously neglected her horse, which forced others to feed an [sic] water it... I doubt very much whether Teal could discipline herself enough to qualify for the ski team. In her letter to me she claims to have come in fourth in the trials. This is very convenient because they probably don't record who comes in fourth place. You should be able to look up the records to see if she actually ever got on the team... Teal eventually realized that Olympic   athletes   are usually supported by their parents and that is exactly why she moved to Park City and pretended to be training for the ski team. Teal is a master at using sexual inunedo [sic] to manipulate males. It never worked on me because I knew her too well (from birth on) and that may be why she wants to discredit me now. I do know this, Teal never suffered any kind of physical or sexual abuse as a child.[end of block quote]	399	She made some claims about qualifying the Ski Team? I know Teal and can tell you that she does not have the ability to sustain an effort for any length of time. She was obsessed with horses but her riding instructor gave up on her because she would not work at improving her riding skills. She seriously neglected her horse, which forced others to feed and water it. I doubt very much whether Teal could discipline herself enough to qualify for the ski team. In her letter to me she claims to have come in fourth in the trials. This is very convenient because they probably don't record who comes in fourth place. You should be able to look up the records to see if she actually ever got on the team. Teal eventually realized that Olympic athletes are usually supported by their parents and that is exactly why she moved to Park City and pretended to be training for the ski team. Teal is a master at using sexual innuendo to manipulate males. I do know this, Teal never suffered any kind of physical or sexual abuse as a child.
406		400
		401	Second page transcription:
407		402
408	I was Training everyday from 7:00 am to 4:30 pm... Training for the 2010 olympics which seems so far away. I lived with A US. Bobsledder and her Shitzu [sic] puppy, And then ended up in this Fantastic place in Old Town Park City. A little Blue Cottage with My New Girl friend (if you can believe it) Sarah Elliot, A world record holding Speed skater and olympic Cyclist And Blake Dyer, My Boyfriend of 1 year Now. (Arial [sic] Skier who's studying to be an International businessman) I Just posed for playboy—maybe the Issue will be in late fall or winter. And for the past 1/2 A year I've been on a diet that excludes everything with Sugar because my Seizures were happening every day No processed food either. I'm So healthy it's scary. Hasn't made a dent on the Self destructive tendencies I have Though, I'm starting to think that side of Me wasn't Meant to change. In fact Aside from having to come home to Myself every Night, Puting [sic] Misery into Action Made Me clock in at 91 miles per hour in March. And All The Elite athletes I've been meeting all have a Reason they have to force	403	I was Training everyday from 7:00 am to 4:30 pm ... Training for the 2010 olympics which seems so far away. I lived with A US. Bobsledder and her Shitzu puppy, And then ended up in this Fantastic place in Old Town Park City. A little Blue Cottage with My New Girl friend (if you can believe it) Sarah Elliot, A world record holding Speed skater and olympic Cyclist And Blake Dyer, My Boyfriend of 1 year Now. (Arial Skier who's studying to be an international businessman) I Just posed for playboy - maybe the Issue will be in late fall or winter. And for the past 1/2 A year I've been on a diet that excludes everything with Sugar because my Seizures were happening every day No processed food either. I'm So healthy it's scary. Hasn't made a dent on the Self destructive tendencies I have Though, I'm starting to think that side of Me wasn't Meant to change. In fact Aside from having to come home to Myself every Night, Puting Misery into Action Made Me clock in at 91 miles per hour in March. And All The Elite athletes I've been meeting all have a Reason they have to force
409		404
410	[Contrary to Teal's claim, we found zero evidence that Teal appeared in Playboy Magazine. Doc also writes, "In [this] letter she...claimed to be in playboy magazine; no need to research this as it...never happened." We researched it, nonetheless. A comprehensive search of all photos in the issues of Playboy from June 2004 to May 2005 at http://www.iplayboy.com/ shows no photos of Teal. Also, a search for "Teal," "Swan," "Scott," and "Bosworth" at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_in_Playboy_2000–09 and http://www.aeolia.net/playboy/playboy.htm reveals no signs of Teal either.]	405	[Contrary to Teal's claim, we found no evidence of Teal ever appearing in Playboy Magazine, Doc also wrote us: "In [this] letter she ... claimed to be in playboy magazine; no need to research this as it never happened." We researched it, nonetheless. A comprehensive search of all photos in the issues of Playboy from June 2004 to May 2005 at http://www.iplayboy.com shows no photos of Teal. Also, a search for "Teal," "Swan," "Scott," and "Bosworth" at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_in_Playboy_2000–09 and http://www.aeolia.net/playboy/playboy.htm reveals no signs of Teal either.]
411
412
413		406
414	Third and fourth page transcription:	407	Third and fourth page transcription:
415		408
416	past levels most people stop at. It seems I've lost all Contacts I had with "energy People" And Though I love park city and Skiing, I'm lonely and I imagine Thats [sic] The real reason I've dreampt [sic] of you 2-4 times every week I've been away and thought of you 5 times more. I read your book again. And it made Me Miss you... You were around me at a time when I was So fragile the line between life and Suicide was like millimeter Thick ice. Deciding whether to commit to life or Not, So Things you said felt good. And Some things almost killed me. I think Sometimes Strength is one thing that can never be given—only randomly acquired. I Miss your day long Speeches. I miss the Theories and the things we'd come up with together. You helped me realize something... I am the unhealed healer I heal by healing others. I've gotten stronger. Therefore more tortured. Visited by much much more. Seen 2 legitimate psychics who both Confirmed what I already know... That my real life's work will be on the Non Physical Rhealm [sic] Connecting the 2 like a doorway. Medium Work. People animals and plants Needy of that sort of thing have been finding me. And Animals (familiars) to aid me have been finding me too. I've never had an easy time (or desired) Talking with Rodents. And I'd end up in Tears Weeks out of time because this is the first Time in my life I've Never had a companion animal And now (as of 3 days ago) I own the most expensive Rodent in the world, A chinchilla who I Named Sang. They live 12+ years. And I have fallen in Love. Chinchillas have Very dark energy	409	past levels most people stop at. It seems I've lost all Contacts I had with "energy People" And Though I love park city and Skiing, I'm lonely and I imagine Thats The real reason I've dreampt of you 2-4 times every week I've been away and thought of you 5 times more. I read your book again. And it made Me Miss you ... You were around me at a time when I was So fragile the line between life and Suicide was like millimeter Thick ice. Deciding whether to commit to life or Not, So Things you said felt good. And Some things almost killed me. I think Sometimes Strength is one thing that can never be given – only randomly acquired. I Miss your day long Speeches. I miss the Theories and the things we'd come up with together. You helped me realize something ... I am the unhealed healer I heal by healing others. I've gotten stronger. Therefore more tortured. Visited by much much more. Seen 2 legitimate psychics who both Confirmed what I already know... That my real life's work will be on the Non Physical Rhealm Connecting the 2 like a doorway. Medium Work. People animals and plants Needy of that sort of thing have been finding me. And Animals (familiars) to aid me have been finding me too. I've never had an easy time (or desired) Talking with Rodents. And I'd end up in Tears Weeks out of time because this is the first Time in my life I've Never had a companion animal And now (as of 3 days ago) I own the most expensive Rodent in the world, A chinchilla who I Named Sang. They live 12+ years. And I have fallen in Love. Chinchillas have Very dark energy
417		410
418	Fourth and fifth page transcription:	411	Fourth and fifth page transcription:
419		412
420	I wouldn't have guessed That. They "key in" to one person usually and thats [sic] already happened with Sang and I. I give him dust Baths. And he falls asleep on my chest watching movies. I foundout [sic] he's a charcoal chinchilla which is pretty rare. And I've found out Already That he starts "Barking" when entities enter the room. Are your Mules ok? I wonder every day what you're doing If you've held any Clinics. And found big business. I Always thought your Ideas Were perfect. I heard you quit the Veterinary Practice. I hope everyday that you quitting would make you happier I called some time ago though and [your wife] sounded miserable. So, I was worried. I May go to the Burkley [sic] psycic [sic] Institute in California Soon Seeing as how Summer is Way too free! I'm secretly Studying Color Therapy... Had to figure out what my Fixation w/ surrounding myself in Blue was about. You know, it would seem that knowing what you Are and Want in life is Nothing to Commend a person for here on earth. The people here tear you further apart once you have a direction, Making The pain 3 times thicker. I suppose you could use it as a reason to Succeed. Something to Climb or Run away from. Sometimes I think I could pretend My life was only a movie I watched and was moved by. But deamons [sic] will always stay deamons [sic] when you ignore them or lock them up in the closets they hide in. They eat Fear like fuel, Needing No real food to Survive.	413	I wouldn't have guessed That. They "key in" to one person usually and thats already happened with Sang and I. I give him dust Baths. And he falls asleep on my chest watching movies. I foundout he's a charcoal chinchilla which is pretty rare. And I've found out Already That he starts "Barking" when entities enter the room. Are your Mules ok? I wonder every day what you're doing If you've held any Clinics. And found big business. I Always thought your Ideas Were perfect. I heard you quit the Veterinary Practice. I hope everyday that you quitting would make you happier I called some time ago though and [your wife] sounded miserable. So, I was worried. I May go to the Burkley psycic Institute in California Soon. Seeing as how Summer is Way too free! I'm secretly Studying Color Therapy... Had to figure out what my Fixation w/ surrounding myself in Blue was about. You know, it would seem that knowing what you Are and Want in life is Nothing to Commend a person for here on earth. The people here tear you further apart once you have a direction, Making The pain 3 times thicker. I suppose you could use it as a reason to Succeed. Something to Climb or Run away from. Sometimes I think I could pretend My life was only a movie I watched and was moved by. But deamons will always stay deamons when you ignore them or lock them up in the closets they hide in. They eat Fear like fuel, Needing No real food to Survive.
421		414
422	Fifth and sixth page transcription:	415	Fifth and sixth page transcription:
423		416
424	So they Never starve to death like you wish they would...However, It is the worst years of your life that deliver you packaged and tied with a bow to the doorstep of the best ones, And things you don't Need grow things you Needed the Most. haha— Finally, I've learned to fall in love with Paridoxes [sic]. In this world, is just a war of Curveballs and Catches within a Game that Most of us have forgotten the rules to. I'm ok with that Now. I just have to Commit to playing it, And get you to Contact me again. So this letter was to tell you that I Miss you.	417	So they Never starve to death like you wish they would... However, It is the worst years of your life that deliver you packaged and tied with a bow to the doorstep of the best ones, And things you don't Need grow things you Needed the Most. haha – Finally, I've learned to fall in love with Paridoxes. In this world, is just a war of Curveballs and Catches within a Game that Most of us have forgotten the rules to. I'm ok with that Now. I just have to Commit to playing it, And get you to Contact me again. So this letter was to tell you that I Miss you.
425		418
426	And I Love You Very Very much.—My phone # is 1- 801-712-2568, Address is: po. Box 683506 park city, UTAH, 84068	419	And I Love You Very Very much. — My phone # is 1-801-712-2568, Address is: po. Box 683506 park city, UTAH, 84068
427		420
428	E-mail qieye@hotmail.com. Wo Hen Shian Ni! [Translation: "I Miss You Very Much!" in Mandarin Chinese]	421	E-mail qieye@hotmail.com. Wo Hen Shian Ni! [Mandarin for "i Miss You very much!"
429		422
430	[heart shape] your Teal	423	[heart shape] your Teal
431		424
432	Follow-up emails with "Doc"	425	Further communications with "Doc"
433		426
434	DOC: Teal was obsessed with horses but her parents had no experience with them and asked for my advise [sic] and help. I found a pony for Teal and taught her to ride. Consequently teal and I had a good relationship. Teal's mother contacted me about Teal's troubling behavior and ask [sic] me to see what I could do. At the time Teal was supposedly cutting herself (wrists) and they were taking her regularly to a psychotherapist. Unfortionately [sic] the therapy (which including [sic] drugs) did not seem to help. Teal was relatively candid with me as we went about my appointments and I soon figured out that she was just scratching her wrists to simulate a cutting scar. The neighbor girl had been cutting herself and Teal saw what a psychological impact it had on the parents. Teal was scratching her wrists each time her father started pushing her to get a job and do chores around the house, and it worked. She confided in me that she was a reincarnation of Cleopatra and her parents were supposed to be her servants. Teal was a master at manipulating her mother and took great pride in upsetting her. When I started taking Teal on my farm calls after school the family had stopped eating together becase [sic] Teal caused so much turmoil at meals. I told them she needed to be disciplined...but her mother took her briefly to China to learn the discipline of QiGong which was one of the modalities I had been practicing. Teal then decided to be a model and her mother set her up in an apartment in California to explore that option. I don't think that lasted more than a week or two... She was not a model, Olympic athlete, or in Playboy magazine.... I did find the letter from Teal and attached are images, included photo, and envelope. This was written at the time she had just moved to park city. Upon some more reflection i think that Teal may feel threatened by my detailed knowledge of her background. I pose a potential threat to the believability of her narrative.... I am not really interested in the details of her fairy tales. In my experience documenting the facts does not persuade true believers.	427	DOC: Teal was obsessed with horses but her parents had no experience with them and asked for my advice and help. I found a pony for Teal and taught her to ride. Consequently Teal and I had a good relationship. Teal's mother contacted me about Teal's troubling behavior and ask me to see what I could do. At the time Teal was supposedly cutting herself (wrists) and they were taking her regularly to a psychotherapist. Unfortunately the therapy (which included drugs) did not seem to help. Teal was relatively candid with me as we went about my appointments and I soon figured out that she was just scratching her wrists to simulate a cutting scar. The neighbor girl had been cutting herself and Teal saw what a psychological impact it had on the parents. Teal was scratching her wrists each time her father started pushing her to get a job and do chores around the house, and it worked. She confided in me that she was a reincarnation of Cleopatra and her parents were supposed to be her servants. Teal was a master at manipulating her mother and took great pride in upsetting her. When I started taking Teal on my farm calls after school the family had stopped eating together because Teal caused so much turmoil at meals. I told them she needed to be disciplined, but her mother took her briefly to China to learn the discipline of Qi Gong which was one of the modalities I had been practicing. Teal then decided to be a model and her mother set her up in an apartment in California to explore that option. I don't think that lasted more than a week or two. Upon some more reflection I think that Teal may feel threatened by my detailed knowledge of her background. I pose a potential threat to the believability of her narrative. I am not really interested in the details of her fairy tales. In my experience documenting the facts does not persuade true believers.
435		428
436	JOHN: I'd be interested to know what lies she tells in that bio [http://tealswan.com/biography], and I'd be particularly interested to see any proof you can provide to show that they are, in fact, lies.	429	JOHN: I'd be interested to know what lies she tells in that bio you can provide to show that they are, in fact, lies.
437		430
438	DOC: There should be some public records concerning her parents [sic] employment, residence, and any case opened against me?	431	DOC: There should be some public records concerning her parents' employment, residence, and any case opened against me?
439		432
440	1 . Her parents and I were not causual [sic] acquaintances, her mother worked for me as an assistant for several years before they were married. She thought Teal might enjoy working with the animals like she had.	433	DOC: -1- Her parents and I were not casual acquaintances, her mother worked for me as an assistant for several years before they were married. She thought Teal might enjoy working with the animals like she had
441		434
442	2 . Her parents were both school teachers who were camp hosts at Tony Groove [sic] Lake in the summer. Teal grew up just north of Hyde Park Utah. I don't think she was born in NM because they already lived in Hyde Park at that time.	435	–2- Her parents were both school teachers who were camp hosts at Tony Grove Lake in the summer. Teal grew up just north of Hyde Park Utah. I don't think she was born in New Mexico because they already lived in Hyde Park at that time.
443		436
444	JOHN: So it looks like Teal was wrong when she said, "Doc was in his fifties or sixties" in 1989—because you were [in your forties] in 1989—but she wasn't off enough for this to [necessarily] constitute a bold-faced lie, or a major delusion.	437	JOHN: So it looks like Teal was wrong when she said, "Doc was in his fifties or sixties in 1989", because you were in your forties then.
445		438
446	DOC:	439	DOC:
447		440
448	3. I was [in my forties] in 1989. Teal was never good at math. [Doc showed us his driver license, which confirms that he was in his forties in 1989.]	441	-3- I was in my forties in 1989. Teal was never good at math. [Doc showed us his driver license, which confirms that he was in his forties in 1989.]
449		442
450	4. If there was a case opened against me, no one ever notified me about it.	443	-4- If there was a case opened against me, no one ever notified me about it.
451		444
452	5. I think her parents might have noticed some evidence of at least one of the three abortions.	445	–5- I think her parents might have noticed some evidence of at least one of the three abortions.
453		446
454	6. I am not a Morman [sic] or religious (no church affiliation) and have never had any children.	447	-6- I am not a Mormon or religious (no church affiliation) and have never had any children.
455		448
456	7. Can she produce any evidence of her modelling career? Where are the adds [sic] she appeared in? She did model for some boy friends but i doubt they paid her for it. Where is the playboy layout they promised her?	449	–7- Can she produce any evidence of her modelling career? Where are the ads she appeared in? She did model for some boyfriends but I doubt they paid her for it. Where is the playboy layout they promised her?
457		450
458	8. Did she ever make the ski team? I doubt it very much because Teal never sustained an effort even for the horsemanship she was obsessed with. Her father eventually sold the horse because she would not take care of it. She never finished any thing she started.	451	–8- Did she ever make the ski team? I doubt it very much because Teal never sustained an effort even for the horsemanship she was obsessed with. Her father eventually sold the horse because she would not take care of it. She never finished anything she started.
459		452
460	June 30, 2015
461		453
462	CAMERON: I watched her relish in riling up her ex-boyfriend, to the point that he said he would hunt you down and kill you. I sat in her kitchen, and watched her tell him and a group of others graphic details about how you had allegedly sexually tortured her, and forced her to work in BDSM clubs in Vegas. I watched and listened, while she told her ex-boyfriend that you had allowed her sternum to be crushed and broken by a chair, as a man sat with the chair leg on her chest, while masturbating on top of her. I watched and listened, as she told her ex- boyfriend that you had covered her in animal blood, during satanic rituals, and that the cow's blood had entered scrapes on her body, causing staph infections all over her back. I heard her tell him that the reason she has no moral compunctions against strangers "fingering" her, is that you took her to tantra classes at age nine—and that digital penetration to her is therefore no different than a handshake. This happened after she had allegedly been digitally penetrated by a client during an "energy healing" session in Teal's house. She told Fallon, her ex-boyfriend, these stories, after he was upset that Teal had allowed this client to digitally penetrate her. He was so angry, by the end of her stories about you, that he went on the Internet to look up your information, and threatened to drive to Idaho in the middle of the night to kill you. He has also publicly alluded to this in a comment on a public blog post. It's all a game to her, it seems to me, but a dangerous game at that. I think she is potentially putting you in quite a bit of danger.	454	CAMERON: I watched her relish in riling up her ex-boyfriend, to the point that he said he would hunt you down and kill you. I sat in her kitchen, and watched her tell him and a group of others graphic details about how you had allegedly sexually tortured her, and forced her to work in BDSM clubs in Vegas. I watched and listened, while she told her ex-boyfriend that you had allowed her sternum to be crushed and broken by a chair, as a man sat with the chair leg on her chest, while masturbating on top of her. I watched and listened, as she told her ex-boyfriend that you had covered her in animal blood, during satanic rituals, and that the cow's blood had entered scrapes on her body, causing staph infections all over her back. I heard her tell him that the reason she has no moral compunctions against strangers "fingering" her, is that you took her to tantra classes at age nine and that digital penetration, to her, is therefore no different than a handshake. This happened after she had allegedly been digitally penetrated by a client during an "energy healing" session in Teal's house. She told Fallon, her ex-boyfriend, these stories, after he was upset that Teal had allowed this client to digitally penetrate her. He was so angry, by the end of her stories about you, that he went on the Internet to look up your information, and threatened to drive to Idaho in the middle of the night to kill you. He has also publicly alluded to this in a comment on a public blog post. It's all a game to her, it seems to me, but a dangerous game at that. I think she is potentially putting you in quite a bit of danger.
463		455
464	DOC: This is what is difficult for many to understand. Teal's stories are not about the specific details, they are about flipping the switch of the person she is talking to. Like pretending to cut herself got her parents to respond the way she wanted them to. The stories about sexual abuse are designed to get a reaction and not about communicating factual information. She composes them on the spot according to the way the specific listener reacts. Consequently the stories seldom if ever match up chronologically or factually. If the listener needs to hear the name of the abuser to believe her story she will supply the first one that pops into her head. She does not worry about the potential consequences of her statements beyond the context of the present situation. Consequently her stories are really not about me personally, who in another context she "loves very, very, much" (page six [of the letter she sent me]). The thing I find most interesting is that people are obsessed with the specific details of stories that are complete fabrications. It is not about the who, what and where of Teal's childhood sexual abuse, because it never happened in physical reality. It all happened in her fantasy world. Incidentally [Teal's alleged] psychic abilities...are limited. She told us that Elizabeth Smart was definitely buried in the Snowville dump, for example.... Unfortunately I made the stupid mistake of giving Teals' [sic] mother my candid opinion of the problem. The big problem in our minds (my wife and I) was that Teal's mother was unable and/or unwilling to discipline Teal in any way and her father refused to get involved. I suggested what [sic] they needed to impose some rules of conduct and strictly enforce them. Consequently and predictably they took this as a personal attack and rejected the whole idea and me for making the suggestion. Teal's mother had a degree in psychology and believed professional therapy was the answer, even thou [sic] it was obviously not working. I heard subsequently from mutual acquaintances that they had bought into at least some of Teal's fantasy. They moved physically and mentally out of the picture to southern Utah in order to avoid dealing with the problem they refused to accept any responsibility for.  Blamming [sic] someone else (me or some other bogyman [sic]) for the problem is a convenient way to absolve themselves of any responsibility for the mess. I believe Teal's continued antagonism with her mother/father was due to her fundamental need for a structured life they did not provide; No rules and no accountability. Her repeated attempts to confront her parents were her way of asking them to provide some guidance. She needed and wanted parenting they were unprepared to provide. She has public ally [sic] denounced them and remains estranged as far as I know. Therefore their opinion may have evolved by now. Teal's aunt is the astronaut Mary Volgesberg (sp). She theoretically would be a more objective and rational individual than Bobby (Teal's mother). But you never know how much she actually knows about the situation. She probably got only Bobby's limited version as she is not the type to follow Teal's internet adventures.	456	DOC: This is what is difficult for many to understand. Teal's stories are not about the specific details, They are about flipping the switch of the person she is talking to. Like pretending to cut herself got her parents to respond the way she wanted them to. The stories about sexual abuse are designed to get a reaction and not about communicating factual information. She composes them on the spot according to the way the specific listener reacts. Consequently the stories seldom if ever match up chronologically or factually. If the listener needs to hear the name of the abuser to believe her story she will supply the first one that pops into her head. She does not worry about the potential consequences of her statements beyond the context of the present situation. Consequently her stories are really not about me personally, who in another context she "loves very, very, much" (page six of the letter she sent me). The thing I find most interesting is that people are obsessed with the specific details of stories that are complete fabrications. It is not about the who, what and where of Teal's childhood sexual abuse, because it never happened in physical reality. It all happened in her fantasy world. Incidentally Teal's alleged psychic abilities are limited. She told us that Elizabeth Smart was definitely buried in the Snowville dump, for example. Unfortunately I made the stupid mistake of giving Teal's mother my candid opinion of the problem. The big problem in our minds (my wife and I) was that Teal's mother was unable and/or unwilling to discipline Teal in any way and her father refused to get involved. I suggested that they needed to impose some rules of conduct and strictly enforce them. Consequently and predictably they took this as a personal attack and rejected the whole idea and me for making the suggestion. Teal's mother had a degree in psychology and believed professional therapy was the answer, even though it was obviously not working. I heard subsequently from mutual acquaintances that they had bought into at least some of Teal's fantasy. They moved physically and mentally out of the picture to southern Utah in order to avoid dealing with the problem they refused to accept any responsibility for. Blaming someone else (me or some other boogieman) for the problem is a convenient way to absolve themselves of any responsibility for the mess. I believe Teal's continued antagonism with her mother/father was due to her fundamental need for a structured life they did not provide: no rules and no accountability. Her repeated attempts to confront her parents were her way of asking them to provide some guidance. She needed and wanted parenting they were unprepared to provide. She has publically denounced them and remains estranged as far as I know. Therefore their opinion may have evolved by now. Teal's aunt is the astronaut Mary Volgesberg (n├⌐e Cleave). She theoretically would be a more objective and rational individual than Bobby (Teal's mother). But you never know how much she actually knows about the situation. She probably got only Bobby's limited version as she is not the type to follow Teal's internet adventures.
465		457
		458	[We called Teal's aunt, Mary Cleave. Her response: "Teal is my niece. Teal is a family member of mine, and I don't do interviews about family members.]
466		459
467	CAMERON: I spent a weekend with Teal's parents at their house in the Escalante Desert, and met her brother several times. I had the sense, while I was there, that her parents were still walking on eggshells with Teal, even though their relationship appeared to be loving and supportive, at that time. She seems to go through constant falling out and reconciliation cycles with them, though. They seem to stay involved in her life rather closely, since the birth of Teal's son. Her parents are very involved in raising him. I get the sense that they stay in her life for the sake of her son, even though they may not actually buy all of her BS. Teal has recently attempted to publicly patch things up with her parents, but it seems more like a publicity stunt, or marketing tactic. It seems she has dragged her parents through the mud fairly consistently, in the past. I also recall that her brother, Sky, at our second meeting, divulged that he thinks his sister has "an imagination, and a penchant for exaggeration," which I thought was rather telling, given that I was a virtual stranger to him.	460	CAMERON: I spent a weekend with Teal's parents at their house in the Escalante Desert, and met her brother several times. I had the sense, while I was there, that her parents were still walking on eggshells with Teal, even though their relationship appeared to be loving and supportive, at that time. She seems to go through constant falling out and reconciliation cycles with them, though. They seem to stay involved in her life rather closely, since the birth of Teal's son. Her parents are very involved in raising him. I get the sense that they stay in her life for the sake of her son, even though they may not actually buy all of her BS. Teal has recently attempted to publicly patch things up with her parents, but it seems more like a publicity stunt, or marketing tactic. It seems she has dragged her parents through the mud fairly consistently, in the past. I also recall that her brother, Sky, at our second meeting, divulged that he thinks his sister has "an imagination, and a penchant for exaggeration," which I thought was rather telling, given that I was a virtual stranger to him.
468		461
469	CAMERON AND JOHN: Did you respond to that letter? Was that the last communication you had with her?	462	JOHN: Did you ever respond to that letter? Was that the last communication you had with her?
470		463
471	DOC: I received two or three similar corresponses [sic] over the years, but never responded to any of them, as they just rambled and never posed any questions that needed answered [sic]. This was several years ago and I do not remember any specific details about them except for one which included several revealing photos I wisely decided not to show my wife. I did not intend to keep them and found this one only incidently [sic] while reorganizing my old files a couple years ago. I don't know why I kept it then, but it retrospect it seems to have been a good idea. I also got a couple of telephone calls that I do not remember anything about, except that they were not about any particular issues; just checking in. She had two different boy friends [sic] bring her to Idaho for discussions about my on going [sic] healing research. One was deaf the other was an associate of Gordon"s [sic; Teal's father] in the forest service. This associate of Gordon's was not a [follower of Teal] and could collaborate [sic] much of my account. He said, at the time, that he brought her because he was worried about the confrontational and erratic behavior she displayed at her family's holiday dinner the day before and I appeared to be the only one she could not buffalo (technical term in cowboy psychology.)	464	DOC: I received two or three similar correspondences over the years, but never responded to any of them, as they just rambled and never posed any questions that needed answering. This was several years ago and I do not remember any specific details about them except for one which included several revealing photos I wisely decided not to show my wife. I did not intend to keep them and found this one only incidentally while reorganizing my old files a couple years ago. I don't know why I kept it then, but it retrospect it seems to have been a good idea. I also got a couple of telephone calls that I do not remember anything about, except that they were not about any particular issues; just checking in. She had two different boyfriends bring her to Idaho for discussions about my ongoing healing research. One was deaf the other was an associate of Gordon (Teal's father) in the forest service. This associate of Gordon was not a follower of Teal and could corroborate much of my account. This boyfriend at the time, said that he brought her because he was worried about the confrontational and erratic behavior she displayed at her family's holiday dinner the day before and I appeared to be the only one she could not buffalo. [bully]
472		465
473	CAMERON: Did you know she suffered from "seizures" before receiving that letter?	466	CAMERON: Did you know she suffered from 'seizures' before receiving that letter?
474		467
475	DOC: supposedly, yes	468	DOC: Supposedly – yes.
476
477	CAMERON: If so, when did she first begin having them?
478
479	DOC: ???
480		469
481	CAMERON: What do you think was the cause of them?	470	CAMERON: What do you think was the cause of them?
482		471
483	DOC: 1. I was always suspicious that she was faking them to manipulate her mother because she never had one while I was around. Seizures like cutting has a powerful psychological effect on other people.	472	DOC: -1- I was always suspicious that she was faking them to manipulate her mother because she never had one while I was around. Seizures like cutting has a powerful psychological effect on other people.
484		473
485	2. She was addicted to white sugar. She kept a jar of sugar with a spoon in it under her bed.	474	–2- She was addicted to white sugar. She kept a jar of sugar with a spoon in it under her bed.
486		475
487	3. The psychologist she was seeing was always trying different medications on her.	476	-3- The psychologist she was seeing was always trying different medications on her.
488		477
489	CAMERON: Did you try helping her manage them?	478	CAMERON: Did you try helping her manage them?
490		479
491	DOC: I told her to stop eatting [sic] the sugar. [Teal and her mother] had an antagonistic relationship when I was around. In one of our many candid conversations driving to an fro [sic] my farm calls Teal said she got the male teachers to help with her school work by being friendly and faking helplessness. She was able to graduate a year or two ahead of time this way. When she wanted something from a male she would hug, touch, bump, and sit close to them. Then pull away quickly if they actively reciprocated in any way. (Accomplished Teaser)	480	DOC: I told her to stop eating the sugar. Teal and her mother had an antagonistic relationship when I was around. In one of our many candid conversations driving to and fro my farm calls, Teal said she got the male teachers to help with her school work by being friendly and faking helplessness. She was able to graduate a year or two ahead of time this way. When she wanted something from a male she would hug, touch, bump, and sit close to them. Then pull away quickly if they actively reciprocated in any way.
492		481
493	CAMERON: Teal has mentioned that you were a lifelong bachelor. However, in the letter Teal sent you, she said she tried calling, and, "[your wife] sounded miserable."	482	CAMERON: Teal has mentioned that you were a lifelong bachelor. However, in the letter Teal sent you, she said she tried calling, and your wife sounded miserable."
494		483
495	DOC: [My wife] thought Teal was always trying to manipulate me and did not like it...we have [sic] been married a long time before Teal was born.	484	DOC: My wife thought Teal was always trying to manipulate me and did not like it. We had been married a long time before Teal was born.
496		485
497	CAMERON: How long have you been married—	486	CAMERON: How long have you been married?
498		487
499	DOC: 34 years to [my wife] and 15 to [my ex-wife] before that	488	DOC: 34 years to my wife and 15 to my ex-wife before that.
500		489
501	CAMERON: —if you don't mind me asking? I only ask because this is yet another possible glaring inconsistency in Teal's...narrative. You wrote, "He said, at the time, that he brought her because he was worried about the confrontational and erratic behavior she displayed at her family's holiday dinner the day before and I appeared to be the only one she could not buffalo (technical term in cowboy psychology)" Did you ever witness or learn about Teal being physically violent towards anyone other than herself?	490	CAMERON: If you don't mind me asking, I only ask because this is yet another possible glaring inconsistency in Teal's narrative. You wrote: "Her boyfriend at the time, said that he brought her because he was worried about the confrontational and erratic behavior she displayed at her family's holiday dinner the day before and I appeared to be the only one she could not buffalo." Did you ever witness or learn about Teal being physically violent towards anyone other than herself?
502		491
503	DOC: No, she was not violent or physicaly [sic] abusive to either people or animals.	492	DOC: No, she was not violent or physically abusive to either people or animals.
504		493
505	CAMERON: Also, what do you mean by "erratic behavior"?	494	CAMERON: Also, what do you mean by "erratic behavior"?
506		495
507	DOC: (The associate's words) Disruptive is purhaps [sic] a better word. I told you that the family had stopped eatting [sic] together because she reportedly always created some kind of contraversy [sic] that upset everyone. I never witnessed this first hand however.... The real culprit here is Teal's parents who have refused to face the situation. Bobbie [Teal's mother] knows full well that I do not fit the profile of Teal's supposed villain. She also obviously knows that Teal's bio is fabricated. Why do they not speak up? Why do they selectively accept the rape allegations when they know the rest is all made up? I think the reason is that they do not want to accept any responsibility for the problem. If any part of Teal's fairy tail [sic] is true, her parents qualify as the worst in the world. They did not know she was abducted at night, held captive, raped repeatedly, tortured, aborted three times, attempted suicide, buried in an Idaho cave etc. etc. etc. ????? All that trama [sic] and turmoil was not noted by her teachers either and apparently did not ultimately interfere with her school work? (She graduated  early   from   high  school). Scheduling her homework assignments between all those traumatic and emotionally charged incidents must have been difficult. [Sarcastically:] The obvious answer is that she is, as she contends, a super natural [sic] being in touch with universal truths, and not a mortal being subject to the laws of nature like the rest of us are.	496	DOC: Disruptive is perhaps a better word. I told you that the family had stopped eating together because she reportedly always created some kind of controversy that upset everyone. I never witnessed this first hand however. The real culprit here is Teal's parents who have refused to face the situation. Bobbie [Teal's mother] knows full well that I do not fit the profile of Teal's supposed villain. She also obviously knows that Teal's bio is fabricated. Why do they not speak up? Why do they selectively accept the rape allegations when they know the rest is all made up? I think the reason is that they do not want to accept any responsibility for the problem. If any part of Teal's fairy tale is true, her parents qualify as the worst in the world. They did not know she was abducted at night, held captive, raped repeatedly, tortured, aborted three times, attempted suicide, buried in an Idaho cave etc. etc. etc. All that trauma and turmoil was not noted by her teachers either and apparently did not ultimately interfere with her school work? (She graduated early from high school.) Scheduling her homework assignments between all those traumatic and emotionally charged incidents must have been difficult. (Sarcastically:) The obvious answer is that she is, as she contends, a supernatural being in touch with universal truths, and not a mortal being subject to the laws of nature like the rest of us are.
508		497
		498	[We called Teal's parents, when we told her mother we wanted to interview her or her husband about Teal, she hung up the phone.]
509		499
510	GURU ETHICS INTERVIEW WITH BLAKE DYER 8/17/2015	500	Presenting: Blake Dyer Teal's ex-boyfriend and business partner
511		501
512		502	On August 17, 2015, three writers for this magazine called Teal Swan's business partner, Blake Dyer, to request a response to this magazine's interview with Teal's alleged abuser. Dyer is Teal's ex-boyfriend, who is COO of Teal's organization, Teal Eye, LLC.
513		503
514	BLAKE DYER: … We were gonna continue you know our passion and doing what we love and— you know--helping people with uh—and then stop being kinda consumed by the—by the hate and the fear, really.	504	BLAKE: We were gonna continue, you know, our passion and doing what we love and —you know, helping people with uh ... and then stop being kinda consumed by the ... by the hate and the fear, really.
515		505
516	DEBRA: I understand that, and that’s not my call to say whether Teal is helping people or not— or how people feel— because thousands of people you know— may have all different reactions— so that’s not my call. Our call as a magazine is for the facts. And the spiritual leaders in the community, are looked up to based on their stories and based on what they say about themselves—and the facts have to add up. So just like— there was a— and I’m not comparing this directly to Teal—but just as an example— you know—there was a very well-known teacher— teaching young people, and he had a pedophilia record— which makes him dangerous. So we look at what’s behind the facts— and the door— and we are concerned, because it’s not adding up to what Teal has said about herself. And it could be a very explosive story in that regard, because people look at her like she’s being very truthful about her background and truthful about what has happened. And maybe some things have happened to her— and that has evolved into a different form, because she doesn’t wanna really discuss the real—the real case behind it? But we’re talking about a man who’s being accused of a very heinous crime—and nothing is matching up— and it’s very disconcerting. I mean— we even went as far as talking to a coroner, who works in a morgue, and he says it’s physically impossible to sew an eight-year-old child into a corpse. I mean—there’s a lot of things that are not adding up, and that’s what we’re concerned about.	506	DEBRA: I understand that, and that's not my call, to say whether Teal is helping people or not or how people feel, because thousands of people, you know, may have all different reactions so that's not my call. Our call as a magazine is for the facts! And the spiritual leaders in the community are looked up to, based upon their stories and based on what they say about themselves, so the facts have to add up. So just like there was —and I'm not comparing this directly to Teal, but just as an example— you know, there was a very well-known teacher who was teaching young people, and he had a pedophilia record which makes him dangerous. So we look at what is behind the facts and the door, and we are concerned because things are not adding up to what Teal has said about herself and it could be a very explosive story. People look at her like she's being very truthful about her background and truthful about what has happened. And maybe some things have happened to her and that has evolved into a different form, because she does not want to really discuss the real case behind it. So we are talking about a man who is being accused of a very heinous crime. And there is nothing that matches up, which is very disconcerting. I mean, she went as far as talking to a coroner, who works in a morgue, and he says it physically impossible to sew an eight year old child into a corpse. A lot of things are not adding up and we are concerned about that. For instance: to be sewn into corpse, is that even possible?
517		507
518	BLAKE DYER: Yes, and I understand your concern I understand your— [clears throat] wanting to—see someone that’s influential to— you know—  be truthful—so—uh— like I said I’m um uh we’re still interested in talking about us with balanced viewpoint. Um I wanna— just check a couple more facts.	508	BLAKE: Yes, and I understand your concern I understand your [clears throat] wanting to see someone that's influential to, you know, be truthful, so uh ... like I said I'm um uh ... we're still interested in talking about us with balanced viewpoint. I wanna, just check a couple more facts.
519		509
520	DEBRA: Sure.	510	DEBRA: Sure.
521		511
522	BLAKE DYER: Um—check a—check a little bit more into you guys— um but—for the moment—you know—we haven’t—we’re going to this uh—we haven’t released his name to anybody— and like John found out that— uh a person that lived with us released Teal’s abuser’s name—and that was totally without our knowledge—and this is— not something we are doing. We are not releasing this person’s name, so— uh	512	BLAKE: Um ... check a ... check a little bit more into you guys ... um but ... for the moment, you know, we haven't. We're going to this uh ... we haven't released his name to anybody and like Sara found out that a person that lived with us release Teal's abuser's name and that was totally without our knowledge and this is not something we are doing. We are not releasing this person's name, so uh ...
523		513
524	JOHN: So you’re saying that Sarbdeep told KIVI-TV without your knowledge and without Teal’s knowledge?	514	SARA: So you're saying that Sarbdeep told KIVI-TV without your knowledge and without Teal's knowledge?
525		515
526	BLAKE DYER: [barely audible] Yeah.	516	BLAKE: [barely audible] Yeah.
527		517
528	JOHN: [Teal’s alleged abuser’s name]?	518	SARA: [Teal's alleged abuser's name]?
529		519
530	BLAKE DYER: Yeah—he shared that information when he wasn’t even living with us.	520	BLAKE: Yeah, he shared that information when he wasn't even living with us.
531		521
532	JOHN: So Cameron also told us that Teal told [Teal’s alleged abuser’s name] to her, to you, to a few other people around a kitchen table. That’s how we even got his name. It’s because Teal told Cameron. So—she’s clearly telling some people.	522	SARA: So Cameron also told us that Teal told her alleged abuser's name to her, you and a few other people around a kitchen table. That's how we even got his name. It's because Teal told Cameron. So, she's clearly telling some people.
533		523
534	BLAKE DYER: Well—that was—in confidence—in our own household and she was a— household member at that time. And—um—the fact that she’s sharing this is—is uh—horrible.	524	BLAKE: Well, that was, in confidence ... in our own household and she was household member at that time, and um ... the fact that she's sharing this is ... is uh horrible.
535		525
536	JOHN: Well she’s not sharing it publicly. I mean she’s told a couple of us. When you say she shared it in confidence—	526	SARA: Well she's not sharing it publicly. I mean she's told a couple of us. When you say she shared it in confidence ...
537		527
538	BLAKE DYER: [interrupts] Well— neither are we.	528	BLAKE: [interrupts] Well, neither are we.
539		529
540	DEBRA: We’re not releasing the name of [Teal’s alleged abuser].	530	DEBRA: We are not releasing the name of Teal's alleged abuser.
541		531
542	JOHN: NO. We’re not gonna publish his name.  But when you say in confidence— what made it confidential?	532	SARA: NO. We're not going to publish his name. But when you say in confidence, what made it confidential?
543		533
544	BLAKE DYER: You’re not gonna— you’re not gonna release his name!?	534	BLAKE: You're not gonna? You're not gonna release his name?
545		535
546	DEBRA AND JOHN: [in tandem] NO.	536	DEBRA AND SARA: [simultaneously, emphatically: NO.
547		537
548	JOHN: Not at all.	538	SARA: Not at all.
549		539
550	DEBRA: m-mm.	540	BLAKE: NOPE.
551		541
552	BLAKE DYER: NO?	542	SARA: No, definitely not.
553		543
554	JOHN: No—definitely not.	544	BLAKE: Because his name is all over that email that you just sent to Teal's parents.
555		545
556	BLAKE DYER: Because— his name is all over that email that you just sent to Teal’s parents.
557
558	JOHN: Well yeah. I mean we figured they already know who he is, so there’s no public information there. We’re already telling them what they already know. But we’re not gonna publish the name in the magazine. We’re redacting his name everywhere. So—	546	SARA: Well yeah. I mean we figured they already know who he is, so there's no public information there. We're already telling them what they already know. But we're not going to publish the name in the magazine. We're redacting his name everywhere. So ...
559		547
560	BLAKE DYER: You are.	548	BLAKE DYER: You are.
561		549
562	JOHN: Yeah. Oh yes— definitely. We want to protect his anonymity.	550	SARA: Yeah. Oh yes, definitely. We want to protect his anonymity.
563		551
564	SARA: Our goal is to protect his anonymity.	552	JOHN: Our goal is to protect his anonymity.
565		553
566	BLAKE DYER: Well good. Because—yeah—we don’t have any interest in— in uh—releasing his name either.	554	BLAKE: Well good. Because, yeah, we don't have any interest in ... in uh ... releasing his name either.
567		555
568	JOHN: Yeah. So when you say Teal told his name to Cameron in confidence—what do you mean in confidence? Did she sign a confidentiality agreement? Or did she make an oral agreement to be confidential?	556	SARA: Yeah. So when you say Teal told his name to Cameron in confidence that do you mean in confidence? Did she sign a confidentiality agreement? Or did he make an oral agreement to be confidential?
569		557
570	BLAKE DYER: Um—	558	BLAKE: Um ...
571		559
572	JOHN: Or is it just assumed that it was private?	560	SARA: Or is it just assumed that it was private?
573		561
574	BLAKE DYER: I don’t know how to—answer you guys in this question because this—it’s in our household.	562	BLAKE: I don't know how to answer you guys in this question because this is in our household.
575		563
576	DEBRA: Mm-hm. Like an—ashram— or like a— like a spiritual community. It was a spiritual community—your household? Is that a fair assessment? I understand because I have been in spiritual communities, so that’s why I’m using that term.	564	DEBRA: Mm-hm. Like an ashram or a spiritual community. Is that a fair assessment? I understand because I have been in spiritual communities, so that's why I'm using that term.
577		565
578	BLAKE: Um—I [sigh]—k—  I’m um I don’t think I’m gonna go further with you guys right now. I—	566	BLAKE: Um ... I [sigh], ok ... I'm um I don't think I'm gonna go further with you guys right now. I ...
579		567
580	DEBRA: Ok.	568	DEBRA: Ok.
581		569
582	BLAKE DYER: I wanna— wanna continue looking at this—but um—	570	BLAKE: I wanna ... wanna continue looking at this, but um ...
583		571
584	DEBRA: Ok. It’s very serious. It is a very serious situation. And we—	572	DEBRA: Ok. It is very serious. It is a very serious situation. And we ...
585		573
586	BLAKE DYER: [interrupts] Well—I think you guys are making this more serious than it is—but— um—	574	BLAKE: [interrupts] Well, I think you guys are making this more serious that is, but um ...
587		575
588	SARA: [surprised] Wha!?	576	JOHN: [surprised] What?
589		577
590	DEBRA: Well—if that was—look at it from this point of view—if that was your father being accused of sewing somebody in a dead corpse— and raping somebody as a child—it would be very serious. You know—this is somebody’s parent— and this is a human being— and nothing is corresponding at all—even physically impossible, cuz we actually checked with coroners and people who work with dead bodies and--	578	DEBRA: Well look at it from this point of view, if that was your father being accused of sewing somebody in a dead corpse and raping somebody as a child, should be very serious, right? You know, this is somebody's husband and this is human being, and nothing adds up whatsoever, some of it is even physical impossible, because we actually checked with coroners and people who work with dead bodies and ...
591		579
592	SARA: [interrupts] This man is married. This man has been married for 35 years, and his wife is implicated in this crime.	580	JOHN: [interrupts] This man is married, has been for 35 years, and his wife implicated in this crime.
593		581
594	BLAKE DYER: K—guys don’t try to— uh—protect this guy right now—um—ok—	582	BLAKE: Ok guys don't try to uh ... protect this guy right now um ... ok... I...
595		583
596	JOHN: Well lemme—Blake Blake—I’m sorry— look—I know that we’re sorta putting you on the defensive here— but my original goal with you was to find out from you—if we said anything wrong in our letter— if we— you said there were some errors in there. I don’t want to argue with you I actually want to give you a chance to say your perspective and—hear where we may have made a mistake—or where we may have gotten the facts wrong—so—if we’ve said or done something wrong—I would really appreciate your corrections.	584	SARA: Blake I'm sorry, look, I know that we're sort of putting you on the defensive here, but my original goal with you was to find out from you if we said anything wrong in our letter. You said there were some errors in there. I don't want argue with you, I actually want to give you a chance to say your perspective an ear where we may have made a mistake, or where we may have gotten the facts wrong. So if we've said or done something wrong, I would really appreciate your corrections.
597		585
598	BLAKE DYER: K. And the fact that you guys are not planning to release his name—is the reason why I’m gonna be continuing with you guys. I’m not gonna go right now—uh—give me a couple more days—uh—	586	BLAKE: Ok. And the fact that you guys are not planning to release his name is the reason why I'm gonna be continuing with you guys. I'm not gonna go right now ... give me a couple more days...
599		587
600	DEBRA: Sure.	588	DEBRA: Sure.
601		589
602	BLAKE DYER: And—um—and we’ll stay in touch… So—Debbie—before we get off um—so what cult—what cult were you in?	590	BLAKE: And um ... and we'll stay in touch ... So Debbie before we get off um o what cult were you in?
603		591
604	DEBRA: What cult was I in?	592	DEBRA: What cult was I in?
605		593
606	BLAKE DYER: Yeah.	594	BLAKE: Yeah.
607		595
608	DEBRA: I was in Jesus People USA in Chicago between the ages of 14 and 16. Then I was into the occult, and I was initiated in Voodoo— and I was actually initiated in Haiti as a— Voodoo priest—and was in Voodoo for quite a few years. And then I floated into Eastern spirituality and was under a satguru—Swami Satchyanand—and studied— vedic philosophy for a while. So I was constantly kind of in a circular way in my beliefs—and pretty much my strongest points would probably be the occult but I actually was in a cult called, Jesus People USA—and I work a lot with recovery people—and I work a lot with cult interventionists, and cult researchers, and journalists—and that sort of— crowd of people.	596	DEBRA: I was in Jesus People USA in Chicago between the ages of 14 and 1 hen I was into the occult, and I was initiated in Voodoo and was actually initiated a Voodoo priestess and was in Voodoo for quite a few years. Afterwards I floated into eastern spirituality and was under a guru called Swami Sachhidanand from Indor, India as I studied Vedic philosophy for a while. So I constantly was in a circular kind of way in my beliefs. Now I work a lot with recovery people and with cult interventionists, researchers and journalists.
609		597
610	BLAKE DYER: Alright. Well—I mean—the last thing we are doing here is trying to start a cult. We don’t want anything to do with that—uh—we— constantly tell people to believe themselves, check their own information, decide for themselves. We lived in a spiritual community for a couple weeks. We decided that eight people in one house is just too much. I mean it was two weeks that Cameron even lived here. And—you know— everybody was— basically going to Teal for advice, and it was just it’s too much on one person to do that—so—it’s— and even—even an intentional community in the future—it’s not gonna be like—you know—she doesn’t seek to—she’s not seeking to be— like that—	598	BLAKE: Alright. Well, I mean, the last thing we are doing here is trying to start a cult. We don't want anything to do with that uh ... we constantly tell people to believe in themselves, check their own information, decide for themselves. We lived in a spiritual community for a couple weeks. We decided that eight people in one house is just too much. I mean it was two weeks that Cameron even lived here. And, you now, everybody was basically going to Teal for advice, and it was just too much one person to do that so it's ... even an intentional community in the future ... it's not gonna be like, you know, she doesn't seek to ... she's not seeking to be like that.
611		599
612	DEBRA: She’s seeking more to be—she’s seeking more to be global—like a global leader—not a cult type of leader. Yeah. I understand what you’re saying. I understand. She kept coming up to us—the name was coming up to us nonstop. Like I said—I knew nothing about Teal Swan at all-- because I’m a little bit old school— and I’m more into the occult background. So the newer teachers—I’m not that attentive towards. And she was coming up constantly and that’s when we decided ok— let’s see what’s going on and—you know—we did it really with a clean slate—not knowing who she was or—without any bias. And what Jessica [Schab] had said to us—we just took it as a grain of salt—and extracted what we felt was—sound—and her personal opinion—we just left at the door.	600	DEBRA: She's seeking more to be global, like a global leader, not a cult-type leader. Yeah, I understand what you're saying. I understand. She kept coming up to us, her name was coming up to us nonstop. Like I said, I knew nothing about Teal Swan at all because I'm a little bit old school and I'm more into the occult background. So the newer teachers I'm not that attentive towards. Yet she was coming up constantly and that's when we decided ok, let's see what's going on and you know, we did it really without bias and with a clean slate, not knowing who she was or what she was about. And what Jessica Schab had said to us, we just took with a grain of salt and extracted what we felt was sound and left her personal opinion at the door.
613		601
614	BLAKE DYER: K— alright well uh— …	602	BLAKE: Ok. Alright, well uh ...
615		603
616	JOHN: … We could just do everything by email—that might be easiest.	604	SARA: We could just do everything by email, that might be the easiest.
617		605
618	DEBRA: Yeah—it might be easiest. Plus— you have time to think what you wanna say. Sometimes when you talk—and there’s emotions coming in—you know—and then you hang up and say, “Oh, I shouldn’t a said that.” When you email—you have time to think—go over what you wanna say—format it—so that might be more of an advantage— for you—if you wanna do it that way.	606	DEBRA: Yeah, it might be easiest. Plus you have time to think what you want say. Sometimes when you talk and emotions are coming in, you know and the you hang up and say: "Oh, I shouldn't have said that." When you email, you have me to think and go over what you really want to say and format it, so that might b more of an advantage for you, if you want to do it that way.
619		607
620	BLAKE DYER: [barely audible] Yeah—I’m— I’m comfortable with that.	608	BLAKE: [barely audible] Yeah, I'm comfortable with that.
621		609
622	DEBRA: Yeah—because you know how it is when you talk and you get nervous or you get—you know—you might say something—blurt something that can be taken outta context. So—journalistically speaking—we do a lot of emailing in correspondence with people, because then also it’s a fact check— because if something is referred—and you have the original email—you know—you can always say, “No, I didn’t say that—I said this—and this is the email.” So— it actually good for you in terms of verifying.	610	DEBRA: Yeah, because you know how it is when you talk and you get nervous and blurt out something that can be taken out of context. So we do a lot of emailing and communicating with people, because then there also is a fact check, because something is referred to and you have the original email, then you can always say "No, I did not say that, I said this and reproduce the email." So it is actually very efficient in terms of verifying.
623		611
624	JOHN: … So does that sound like a good plan? It would also go much faster, and we wouldn’t have to worry about deadlines—and traveling—and whatnot. So is that ok for you Blake—to just correspond by email?	612	SARA: So does that sound like a good plan? It would also go much faster and we wouldn't have to worry about deadlines and traveling and whatnot. So is that ok for you, Blake, to just correspond by email?
625		613
626	BLAKE DYER: Yeah, if we go through email—yeah—ok that’s fine I mean—I’m—extremely busy.	614	BLAKE: Yeah, if we go through email. Yeah, ok, that's fine I mean ... I'm extremely busy ...
627		615
628	DEBRA: [interrupts] I was more concerned… Any email to us—you can publish as well and—quote from—you know we both have a clear record of what we’re saying back and forth—  and there can be no um—smudging or hinting or—and just— you know— people misinterpret things. We don’t know each other, and it’s easy to take something and say, “Oh, I think he meant that.” And you didn’t. So—it’s um—	616	DEBRA: [interrupts] Any email to us you can publish as well and quote from, so you know we both have a clear record of what we're saying back and forth and there can be no smudging or hinting or whatever, you know how people misinterpret things. We don't know each other and it is easy to take something and say, "Oh, I think he meant that." And you didn't.
629		617
630	BLAKE DYER: Right and—you know and that’s—I thought that’s where you guys were coming from I mean when I spoke to John last week. I was like—you know—if you have something in your mind about— already about who Teal is—or what is going on—then you’ve already made it up—and what am I gonna say—that’s gonna? I’m uh—we’re afraid that you’re just gonna be using whatever we say against us.	618	BLAKE: Right and, you know, and that's ... I thought that's where you guys were coming from, I mean when I spoke to Sara last week. I was like, you know, if you have something in your mind already about who Teal is or what is going on, then you've already made it up, and what am I gonna say that's gonna ... I'm uh ... we're afraid that you're just gonna be using whatever we say against us.
631		619
632	JOHN: Well—as I said—we’re just gonna print whatever you say verbatim, and let the reader make up their mind for themselves. And I’m gonna try to keep an open mind as well—and I—I’m sure that Debra and Sara will do the best that they can too. So—we just wanna hear your side of the story.	620	SARA: Well, as I said, we're just going to print whatever you say verbatim and let the readers make up their minds for themselves. And I will try to keep an open mind as well, and I am sure that Debra and John will do the best that they can too. So we just want to hear your side of the story.
633		621
634	DEBRA: We have to. We have to—report things as they are. So—we have to present that to the public. And you know we could have not even reached out to you and— um—Miss Swan, but we felt like we had to out of fairness. You know we can’t call ourselves Ethics and the Modern Guru—and then you know we don’t have—we don’t uphold—getting the other side of the story at all. So—would there be any chance in the future that Teal would do an interview?	622	DEBRA: We have to. We must report things as they are. We have to present that to the public. And you know we could have not even reached out to you and Miss Swan, but we felt like we had to out of fairness. So would there be any chance in the future that Teal would do an interview?
635		623
636	BLAKE DYER: If this goes well—yes.	624	BLAKE: If this goes well, yes.
637		625
638	DEBRA: Mm-k. I know this is—I’m just throwing that out there. S0—I’m not having any expectations towards it. But um—I’m sure—	626	DEBRA: Ok. I'm just throwing that out there, so I'm not having any expectations towards it. But I'm sure ...
639		627
640	BLAKE DYER: Yeah— I mean— yeah— I mean--yeah—if—if uh—we continue to see a— uh—balanced look at—at the facts then—then yeah—that is a possibility.	628	JOHN: [interjects] We're doing you a favor.
641		629
642	DEBRA: Ok. That’s good. But like I said—we’re not hoping for it. We’re just trying to throw it out there—and see—
643
644	BLAKE DYER: Well um—well I’ll—
645
646	SARA: [interjects] We’re doing you a favor.
647
648	BLAKE DYER: I’ll keep in contact as much as I can.	630	BLAKE: I'll keep in contact as much as I can.
649		631
650	DEBRA: Ok.	632	DEBRA: Ok.
651		633
652	BLAKE DYER: Um and um—I can see us— uh—maybe completing this in a—probably in the— maybe a couple weeks’ time.	634	BLAKE: I can see us uh, maybe completing this in ... probably in the ... maybe a couple weeks' time.
653		635
654	DEBRA: Ok, that’s fine—cuz that’s what we kinda need…
655		636
656	JOHN: So Blake—do you wanna start by just sending us an email showing us what’s wrong with the letter that uh—we sent to Teal’s parents? Is that a good place to start the conversation?	637	SARA: So Blake, do you want to start by just sending us an email, showing us what's wrong with the letter we sent to Teal's parents? Is that a good place to start the conversation?
657		638
658	BLAKE DYER: Sure--I suppose so. Then also if you guys wanna send me any questions.	639	BLAKE: Sure, I suppose so. Then, also, if you guys wanna send me any questions.
659		640
660	JOHN: Ok. Great.
661		641
662	DEBRA: Ok. That’s good…	642	DEBRA: Ok. That's good.
		643
		644	"Ethics and the Modern Guru' made multiple attempts to get a statement from Teal Swan and Blake Dyer for this issue. We invited them to respond to a letter sent to Teal's parents which Dyer claimed was full of errors. He expressed reluctance to provide a statement but ultimately agreed. After two and a half weeks negotiations completely broke down.
		645
		646	Dyer was apprised repeatedly that the deadline was approaching and thus that a response was needed, if they wished it to be included in the magazine. At the eleventh hour, he emailed us, offering a response from Teal, if we would provide questions.
		647
		648	Dyer still had not delivered a response, to the letter to Teal's parents, by the deadline to which he had agreed. We promptly emailed questions for both of them and reminded him that we still needed a response to the letter. Teal and Blake returned partial answers, and addressed only one element of the letter to Teal's parents.
		649
		650	Their emailed responses to our questions included a number of assertions that could not be verified at press time.
		651
		652	They provided no formal statement. Dyer also refused to have any of their answers to our questions published without their final approval of the finished text. We advised them that none of our interview subjects have this kind of editorial control or approval over the publication, therefore, their provision could not be met. At press time, we have no agreement from them and no official statement. We will continue to seek clarity from them and a statement addressing these questions. An addendum will follow on our website....

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